Reversals

[pellik]

Originally posted by humble
A: initiate a gentle nose down turn as he closes to 1500 yds and tighten incrementally until he breaks off/loses vis/is forced out front. Use tightened turn/throttle/flaps/airbrakes as needed to slow your plane down to force above... [/B]

Emphasis on loses vis. Do this at 10-15 degrees nose down and watch him closely. At ~D600 you will usually see him start pulling lead, when that happens just do a barrel roll and watch as he passes right below you. You'll get a quick snapshot almost every time. Just be careful, if he doesn't pull hard for a guns solution he is lag turning you and a roll out is going to force you to try for a very hard to get overshoot in the vertical. If you do this maneuver enough you'll just get a "feel" for when he is getting too close to you for a guns solution, and with a well timed barrel roll you'll see 90% of the guys in the MA pass D250 right in front of your nose as they pull up at you and try to get vertical for safty.

-pellik

[SlapShot]

Man ... some good stuff going on here !!!

"My problem is when I'm doing say 300, at 15k, and I have a bogie closing form my 6. I notice him at 3k out, and at the rate of closure he will be in guns range in 5 or 10 seconds.... closing fast enought that Im not going to out run him, but with not such a big differance in speed that I can force an over shot type maneuver as he'll be able to pretty much do what I can at that speed."

MDJ ...

If he is closing a 3K gap in 5 to 10 seconds, then I would think that he has much more speed than you ... IMHO

I have been flying the P-39 alot as of late, and in this situation, yes the Split-S is an option, but I hate to give away alt if not needed. I would have turned into him (much like humble describes) as soon as I sensed the rapid rate of closure.

This would cause him to try to slow down to get a decent guns solution, and if he didn't slow down, as he passed, if the rate of separation is fast, then I would break off the turn and go nose down a little to try to get some E and separation back. Now, he has to turn back to engage. If he is smart, then he zoomed to turn alt back into E and at this point is where you try to continue to equalize the E state using the same "turn into him" technique. If he flat turned, then you are getting to equal ground much sooner than he would like.

If the WT film is the one that I am thinking about (Spit V), all his attackers are faster, but not at a rate of closure of 3K in 5 to 10 seconds. If they were, I don't think that he would get the shot as we see in the film until he HAS equalized speed/E a little more due to their sheer speed at the pass. Although WT can do things that make my eyes go wide open ... hehe.

It's a great film and I have made use of that move many times since watching it ... thanks WT. Also, I have used that same move using the P-38, but again, the E states have to be closer than what MDJ describes before a good solid shot can be had.

[WldThing]

cc Slap,  basically as i have described above in my reply

he should be making a few passes of BnZ sort, and each pass he makes he will get slower and slower, you should reverse him when your sure he is slow enough so that you can pull off the reversal.

gotta get the bastige slow enough for you to pull it off..

But the major mistake that i see people do is they do a flat turn when im closing in fast,  and i position my plane to turn into them and then i let my guns blaze,  i will always get a few pings and sometimes thats enough to bring em down.  

I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast,  my reaction has always been that..  Yes you lose alt,  but you wont die hehe

[SlapShot]

"I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast, my reaction has always been that.. Yes you lose alt, but you wont die hehe"

Even if you have spied him 3K behind ya ?

I usually use The Spit-S in the "OH-CHIT !!!" situation and my pants are somewhere down by my ankles ...

[MaddogJoe]

Thanks for all the great post. It amazes me that you guys can "see" when a bogie goes from lag to lead !!!:eek:  I'm lucky if I can guess at which FW it is as they make their run on me !!

The timing is certainly a big part of the WT maneuver as well as knowing when you've pulled enough G's to get the bogie to break off his turn so you can pull the barrel roll on him for the shot.

What are you looking for to see when a bogie goes from lag to lead? Is it again the "feel" thing, or are there certain "trail markers" you look for?

SlapShot, my example may have ben a bit off, the timing I'm refering to is if I'm running 350, and the bogies running 375, he's closing fast enough that extending isn't an option as hes going to catch me soon enough, and trying to do a tightening nose low turn to get him to give up the shot and extend to give me the room for a barrel roll type shot isn't going to work as he will most likely be able to stay with any turn I make. In this case what would you try?

Thanks again, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning alot here!

[WldThing]

Originally posted by SlapShot
"I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast, my reaction has always been that.. Yes you lose alt, but you wont die hehe"

Even if you have spied him 3K behind ya ?

I usually use The Spit-S in the "OH-CHIT !!!" situation and my pants are somewhere down by my ankles ...

O No No,  i was saying i would pull of a Split - S in the "O Chit" situation, "He's 1k and closing fast behind me situation"..

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by MaddogJoe
Thanks for all the great post. It amazes me that you guys can "see" when a bogie goes from lag to lead !!!:eek:  I'm lucky if I can guess at which FW it is as they make their run on me !!

The timing is certainly a big part of the WT maneuver as well as knowing when you've pulled enough G's to get the bogie to break off his turn so you can pull the barrel roll on him for the shot.

What are you looking for to see when a bogie goes from lag to lead? Is it again the "feel" thing, or are there certain "trail markers" you look for?

SlapShot, my example may have ben a bit off, the timing I'm refering to is if I'm running 350, and the bogies running 375, he's closing fast enough that extending isn't an option as hes going to catch me soon enough, and trying to do a tightening nose low turn to get him to give up the shot and extend to give me the room for a barrel roll type shot isn't going to work as he will most likely be able to stay with any turn I make. In this case what would you try?

Thanks again, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning alot here!

I do a serious Split-S hoping that he didn't follow or a serious break turn. In both of these moves, I would be looking to go into black-out, cause in most instances, if he follows, he will too.

On the Split-S, at the bottom I would hope to aquire him at the end of the black out and if he is still there, off throttle, dive flaps, hard break turn inducing another possible black-out and start the scissors.

On the hard break turn, I would hope to aquire him at the end of the black out and if he is still there, start the scissors.

Bottom line is to do something drastic that is hard to follow hoping for the chance that he loses aquisition.

[killnu]

ill do a very hard flat turn about 90 degrees, kill thottle and hit dive brake, then roll under and take my original heading and i usually endup about 300 off nmes 6 that was coming very fast on my 6.  once im about 1/2 through rolling under i go full throttle with wep.  im getting a much better feel for this and have a decent percentage of good things from this.  i am blacked out most time, that why it is kinda a feel thing.
~S~

[bozon]

What are you looking for to see when a bogie goes from lag to lead? Is it again the "feel" thing, or are there certain "trail markers" you look for?

in AH especially with low screen resolution it's very hard to see whether he's pointing behind you or ahead of you.
what I DO see is the geometry of his course:

Is he following my circle? in that case he's in lag persuit and carfully controlling the closure, those are the dangerous pilots.

Is he cutting inside my circle? in that case, he's trying to close fast for a snapshot, and if close, I might be under his nose where he can't see me. This is what you want to see for a good reversal.

Bozon

[pellik]

There is one tell-tale sign that an enemy is pulling lead on you- his guns. If you're dropping below his nose he will start firing at you, and this means it's slightly after the optimal time to start your roll. For the most part you can judge lead just by looking at your opponent. The profile of his plane will start to change a little when he pulls for lead, you'll see a little more of his belly.

-pellik

[jetb123]

who si wildthing and how do i see his reversal moves help pleses!!!!!!!!:confused:

[Spitter]

Don't forget about the P38's knife fighting capabilities.  If you can drag the con into a turn fight, you've got him.  
Just use the flaps, and lots of rudder to keep from spinning, and you can out turn a spit V.  
I have WT's film downloaded.  I've watched it about 15 times so far, and get a bit more out of it each time.  
Still woulda lost half those cons, since my gunnery is horrific.  Even with a good lead, I tend to use 3 times the ammo for a kill than WT does in that video.  
To all you guys who have helped me learn the 38.  

Cheers,
Spitter

[Murdr]

Originally posted by WldThing

I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast,  my reaction has always been that..  Yes you lose alt,  but you wont die hehe

Heh, me too.  I will even watch them come from thousands of yards away, and wait till d1.2-1.4 to do it because sometimes they are kind enough to try to follow which can still often end up as an overshoot maneuver.

[debuman]

THis is a very interesting thread....but where is the film that you guys keep refereing to?  Maybe someone could post another link to it?  Thanks!

[MaddogJoe]

this is the link to the film WldThing film I don't know if its a AH2 film or not, I don't remember. If its not then you need a ver of AH1 to view it.

I love these kinds of threads. If you can get some of these guys talking about the right things, us newbies can get some great infomation !