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Author Topic: Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level  (Read 4454 times)

Offline gwshaw

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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2004, 02:15:54 PM »
IIRC, the Bf 109K w/DB605D was restricted to 1.8 ata using B4+MW50 or straight C3, which is good for about 1800 ps. The 2000 ps 1.98 ata figure was for C3+MW50 and I don't believe it was available until early '45.

At 1975 hp + 148 lbs exhaust thrust I'm getting a Cd 0 of .0259 for 378 mph. (80% Prop efficiency)

Using the same Cd 0 figure, but changing power to 1777 hp + 135 lbs thrust, comes to 364 mph @ SL.

Given that the DB605D chart shows Climb & Combat, not Start & Emergency, those figures are probably pretty accurate.

Greg Shaw
(edited to fix ps/hp confusion)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 02:22:42 PM by gwshaw »
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Offline Crumpp

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2004, 02:40:56 PM »
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Given that the DB605D chart shows Climb & Combat, not Start & Emergency, those figures are probably pretty accurate.


Thank you Greg.  

Only data I have seen for MW-50 speed at sea level is for a 109K4/R2 photo recon version.  This version does not mount cowl guns and has a smoothed over fairing.



Unfortunately Jochen Prien and Peter Rodeike say no evidence exist's the Bf-109K4/R2 made it from testing to the Geschwaders.  

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 02:51:07 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline Crumpp

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2004, 03:00:47 PM »
Quote
Oh, BTW, the charts are rather unclear.  I'll see if I can get a friend of mine (Graphic's man) to clean them up a bit.


Thank you Angus.  Got a list of materials relating to the FW-190A from the Archives at Wright Patterson.  Gonna be heading that way soon.  I will email the list to you and if you have any request's for other specific data let me know.

Crumpp
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Offline gwshaw

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2004, 03:03:40 PM »
That 580/710 km/h figue seems to be right in line with 1.8 ata for the DB605. A test from August '44 would most likely be B4+MW50 as well.

Greg Shaw
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Offline gwshaw

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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2004, 03:06:11 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Thank you Angus.  Got a list of materials relating to the FW-190A from the Archives at Wright Patterson.  Gonna be heading that way soon.  I will email the list to you and if you have any request's for other specific data let me know.

Crumpp


When did they open up again for research? I lived two hours from there for the last 2 1/2 years, and they were closed due to security the whole time. Just moved away a couple months ago. If they opened back up just after I left I'm gonna be pissed.

Greg Shaw
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2004, 03:07:55 PM »
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Originally posted by gwshaw
IIRC, the Bf 109K w/DB605D was restricted to 1.8 ata using B4+MW50 or straight C3, which is good for about 1800 ps. The 2000 ps 1.98 ata figure was for C3+MW50 and I don't believe it was available until early '45.

At 1975 hp + 148 lbs exhaust thrust I'm getting a Cd 0 of .0259 for 378 mph. (80% Prop efficiency)

Using the same Cd 0 figure, but changing power to 1777 hp + 135 lbs thrust, comes to 364 mph @ SL.

Given that the DB605D chart shows Climb & Combat, not Start & Emergency, those figures are probably pretty accurate.

Greg Shaw
(edited to fix ps/hp confusion)


There Crummp a 2000hp MW50 109K4 does 378hp at SL.

An 1800HP one does 364mph at sea level.

Both are as fast or faster than 190A8. You are wrong.
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Offline Crumpp

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2004, 03:09:09 PM »
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When did they open up again for research?


Please post your email so we can remove the discussion off the BBS.  Yes they are still closed to the public.

Thanks Greg!

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 03:21:27 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2004, 03:13:50 PM »
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Please post your email so we can remove the discussion off the BBS.

Thanks Greg!

Crumpp


Yea get your crap and lies off this board!

At least until you admit the garbage you posted and insistedd was refective of real 2000HP Bf109K was actually worthless and unrepresentative!
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Offline Crumpp

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2004, 03:19:24 PM »
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There Crummp a 2000hp MW50 109K4 does 378hp at SL.


Yes for this flight test which shows 575kph for the FW-190A8 with full wing cannon and the 115 liter aux tank.  Remember the other tested flight data I have on the FW-190A8 says 585kph at sea level.  Unfortunately the 109K does not begin to touch the FW-190D9 which was it's contemporary.
 

Guess you missed, Gregs other calculations in the other thread.  Selective with our facts huh?

Crumpp
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2004, 03:32:53 PM »
Greg calculated 378mph for seallevel for a 2000hp Bf109K4 with MW50..  

Which is the standrard accepted true published figure for a 2000hp Bf109K4...

He also calculated 364mph for an 1800hp Bf109K4..

Your figure of 585km/h for the best case A8 is 363mph - so any Bf109K4 is as fast or faster than yoiur best case Fw190A8..  In fact the worst case production K4 at 1800HP is as fast as your best case FW190A8..  Hillarious!  Arent facts a biotch?

So Bf109K4   IS  faster than A8 at all altitudes. You know that,  and thats why you are now trying to pathetically change your argument to a comparsion between Bf109K4 and Fw190D9  from yiour original comaprsion of K4 and A8 speeds, where you arrogantly and incorrectly stated that A8 is faster than a 2000hp Bf190K4 at all alts up to 6K - of couse all based on your acceptance of an unfinsed no MW50 109K prototypes speed as gospel...

:rofl :rofl

And to think all of this could have been avoided if you didnt try to pass of the performnnce of unfinished undeveloped 109 prototypes lacking MW50 as being representative of real fully developed in service models...
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2004, 03:40:34 PM »
Oh and as for your data about the K4/R2 reconnaisance model lets look at that climb figure at sea level...

13.5 meters per second....

Well thats 2,658 feet per minute...   I really do wonder how much taht sucker weighed to climb so poorly...  Or just how much power it really had...  

Are you saying Bf109K4 with 2000hp  should only climb at 2.658 fpm at sea level???

:rofl :rofl

.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 03:44:49 PM by GRUNHERZ »
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Offline Crumpp

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2004, 03:44:18 PM »


Crumpp
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Offline gwshaw

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« Reply #27 on: October 12, 2004, 03:47:13 PM »
Be careful with my figures. I used 378 mph on 2000 ps w/150 lbs exhaust as my starting point. That was based on the accepted figure of 378 @ SL for the K-4, and my notes from Butch2k's old site. But, and it is a big but, if that is a valid figure then the 1800 ps figure should be pretty close as well.

Greg Shaw
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Offline Crumpp

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2004, 03:51:15 PM »
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Are you saying Bf109K4 with 2000hp should only climb at 2.658 fpm at sea level???


I think the version you keep refering too is a March 1945 A/C.  Butch2K has a great explaination of the Bf-109K4's development and clearence on his sight, Grunhertz.

The FW-190A8 was faster than the Bf-109K4 within it's time frame for development.  By the time the Bf-109K4 was cleared for the 2000PS rating, the FW-190D9 was well in place.

The FW-190A8's Bf-109K4 counterpart was only cleared for 1850PS @ 1.80ata.

Crumpp
« Last Edit: October 12, 2004, 03:53:28 PM by Crumpp »
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bf109 vs Fw190 speed at low level
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2004, 03:52:33 PM »
So at 1750hp it does 580km/h...  

At 1800hp it should be faster like say 364 mph just las was calculated... Of course this is again the worst case 1800hp Bf109K4...

BTW why are you changing your tune now? That chart shows a Bf109K Jager, a fighter. Not a recon plane.. Just before this you were ademant that the only way a K4 woyld do 580km/h was if it was some some supposedly special lightenend sreamlined recon variant and not a normal fighter..

Also note that this is for only 1800hp, not the 2000hp of an MW50 powered Bf109K4 -  which you also clained to be extremly slow...

Finally arent all those speeds for the inferior G14 models much higher than what you were claiming that even a K4 could to yesterday?

:rofl :rofl
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