Stuka Tank Buster for the planeset

[Karnak]

MOSQ,

I would be very surprised if HTC spent effort on making an aircraft that was not up to AH2 specs.  It isn't a matter of if the could just add the gun pods, it's a matter of if they'd want to do so without bringing the Stuka up to AH2 specs.


What we need isn't some slow, underpowered Ju87G with a couple of 37mm guns.  We need a Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII with a 57mm cannon.

[Pongo]

The S gun wasnt ineffective in real life. It was ineffective vs tigers.

You should read Tonys book about what was effective vs tanks. There is a number quoted in there that after all BDA is done the western allies probably only killed 100 tanks with fighterbombers in the normandy campaign. How many fighter bombers were killed to accomplish that..2-3000?

S gun round looks like an HE round more then an AP round.

[Tony Williams]

The S Gun AP ammo followed an entirely different principle from the Hartkernmunition. It relied on the mass of a heavy steel projectile travelling relatively slowly to bash its way through armour, rather than a narrow tungsten core travelling quickly.

Later in the war the British tried fitting a Littlejohn squeezebore adaptor to the S Gun and tested it on a Hurricane. See: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/sgun.htm

The Hurri IID didn't actually attack in a dive: this is from 'Flying Guns – World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45':

"The gun was capable of automatic fire, but in fact the first shot from each cannon pushed the nose of the aircraft down and off the target, so in practice only single shots from each barrel were fired, the sights being brought back into line before the second salvo. Pilots learned to pull back slightly on the control column at the moment of firing, in order to minimise this effect. The typical attack profile saw the Hurricane diving from 1,500 m before levelling off just above the ground at 400 km/h. The first shots were fired at about 900 m with two further salvoes being fired before the pilot pulled up to avoid hitting the target."

However, later tests in SE Asia showed that a diving attack would be more effective.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[artik]

Originally posted by MOSQ
Pyro,
.....One pilot Hans-Urlech Rudel’s personnel score was an amazing 519 Russian vehicles destroyed......

Did you read his book?

I did.........

If he had at least half of the tanks destroyed he tells he did German would win the war.......

Form what he wrote - I understand one thing....... he was very good pilot but he knows even better then flying ---- to tell lots of b** sh***.

So.... I'd be much more sceptic about these numbers - and lots of other things he told. (BTW I do belive he is very lucky guy)

About the Ju-87G it would be nice to have it - but only as axis anti-viecle plane... IL-2 is much better in this role - because of heavy armor it has.

[Pongo]

Artik.
If he had destroyed 10 times the tanks he said he did the germans would still have lost the war.

The guy was a rabid nazi. More honest about it then many of his brethern. But as far as I know his claims are valid.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by Pongo
The guy was a rabid nazi. More honest about it then many of his brethern. But as far as I know his claims are valid.

I'd be very surprised. As a result of careful checking after the battles, the RAF and USAAF fighter-bomber pilots were known to overclaim by 10 times. AFAIK no such checking went into German claims. I wouldn't necessarily expect their overclaiming to be so bad, as they made more use of anti-tank guns which were much more accurate than rockets or bombs, but some of the reasons for Allied overclaiming would still have applied.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[artik]

All I want to say:

We shoudn't beleve the things Rudel had written - or was awarded of !!!!!

When you read how 8(!)x37mm (!!!!) canon round had hit his stuka (not couning lower calibers) and he had landed safly....... you understand that something wrong

You know - I don't believe half of things he had written.

When you read his book you "figures out" that Rudel was only pilot that destroyed targets.  

So.....

[vorticon]

the idea that i got from rudels book was that he felt any tank he shot he "destroyed"

would be nice if they fixed the hurri 2d before they added that stuke.

[Pongo]

Originally posted by Tony Williams
I'd be very surprised.]

Rudels impact on the battle field was recognized by the German Army. I think we can accept that his unit had an increadable impact on Soviet armour. The weapon he was using was easily capable of killing the vast majority of the tanks he engaged when used the way he used it.  Its not like he was lighting up a Tiger with 50cal and claiming it killed.
He certainly would have been subject to all the isses of overclaiming but the most signigant. His weapon could kill the targets he claimed quite easily.

[MOSQ]

I just want them to add the 37mm gun pods as an optional weapons loadout on the JU87-D. Later HTC can redo the plane and call it the JU-87G in AHII modelling.

As far as Rudel, there's no denying his bravery in the face of near certain death. He was the most highly decorated German combatant. They actually had to create a new level of order for the Knight's Cross just for him.

Even minus a leg, he still jumped back into a totally obsolete plane and continued the fight with a prosthetic leg.

It's amazing he survived the war, luck was definitley with him.

I really don't care whether he destoryed 500 or 300 tanks, his accomplishments on the battle field were remarkable.

However he was a rabid Nazi. The only thing keeping him out of Hell is probably that he was assigned to a combat unit and not an SS unit. ( And Yes I'm aware of the SS combat units, but you know what I mean.)

[RTSigma]

Can you imagine how slow and unweildly that Ju-87G would be?

AH2 is all about combined arms. If you have just a tank force assaulting a base, a number of dedicated aircraft can destory it. If you have planes assaulting a base, ground forces against your planes will have no difficulty in getting off shots at you(FLaK and M16).

Have the Ju-87G in AH2. Give it a total of 12 rounds. It would be slightly slowly and less manueverable then the Ju-87D we have now. Give it recoil.

This plane would be easy picken's for FLaK and M16s, so why perk it? If the tanker is skilled, he could always quickly change direction.

The Ju-87G, other than its 3.7cm guns, has no other offensive armament. It's only protection was the gunner, and thats not really all the effective unless someone is manning it with great aim.

[AVRO1]

Originally posted by Karnak
What we need isn't some slow, underpowered Ju87G with a couple of 37mm guns.  We need a Mosquito FB.Mk XVIII with a 57mm cannon.

The 37mm are pretty effective against aircrafts but they are really tough to hit with. At least they were in FA were I killed an Avenger that attacked me when I had only 2 37mm ammo left and killed him with a cokpit shot.  Wish I had it on film.

I agree about the Mossie with the 57 mm cannon.
With 8 rockets and 25 57 mm rounds it's a bird of prey.

[Kweassa]

would be nice if they fixed the hurri 2d before they added that stuke.

 Fix what? The Hurri2D seems fine.

Why does anyone bother to use a tank now? Both panzerknackers we have now (Hurri-D, IL-2) can kill a ground vehicle in one pass suicidally.

 They suicide because usually they make a few passes and find out that the tank is unharmed. They get pissed and hold the trigger through a dive a little too long, and that's when they auger.

 Personally the only thing I'm afraid of when I'm in a tank, is an IL-2, Hurri2D, and another tank. While it is true, like Urchin said, that continued strafes from guns 20mms and under still damage a tank eventually, the chances of this happening are much lower than it used to be. Not to mention most people have horrific aim with bombs and rockets.

 Unless there is someone who's had some experiences with an IL-2 or a Hurri2D included in the defense, 5~6 tanks can march onto a field and start turning it into a parking lot while 3~4 defenders hardly even damage one tank, much less kill(explode) one.

 

This plane would be easy picken's for FLaK and M16s, so why perk it?

 If there's anything that can kill a tank literally in a single pass it's the Ju87G. Takes no special approach, no angles, just pass and shoot and boom! Penetration.

 Why is anyone gonna start riding something else than an Osty or a M16 when that happens?

 Remember the days of old AH1? Once upon a time, there was a time when "ground assault" meant "osty horde". Nobody used tanks. Any plane could disable it literally in a single pass. .50s and 20mms, even .303 rounds. So nobody used tanks.

 It wasn't until the tank armour was fixed a bug, and then subsequentially strengthened a bit to more accurately portray penetration values, that the concept of "ground assault" changed to armoured column of tanks.

 As a general rule(according to AH experience), when the effectiveness of aerial strafing passes greatly surpasses the effectiveness of tank armour, the tanks die out from the MA. The Ju87G, when free, is a plane that can cause that result once more. I guarantee you that.

 It needs a perk. Since its an attack plane, not a bomber, it should use fighter perks. 10~15 perks. It doesn't matter how easy this plane is to kill with other fighters or AA vehicles.

 The only thing in question is the effect this plane can bring considering the GV warfare as it is in the MA. And the answer is, "It's gonna bring the extinction of tank usage, and consequentially, current tank busters, as a whole."

  It's like a ecosystem - when one supreme predator appears in too much numbers, the others die out. Everybody uses G Stuka -> Nobody uses Panzers or 50perk Tigers, and Hurri2D/IL2s  -> Everybody uses Osties and M162 -> Nobody uses G Stuka.

 A free Ju87G is a great, elaborate way to make 4~5 aircraft/vehicles of AH into hangar queens, including the Ju87G itself.

[GRUNHERZ]

IL2 is by far the most useful defensive plane in this game.

I have used one on numerous occasions more or less singlehandedly stop mass GV attacks and vulches on airbases.

Its a wonder weapon with the best all purpose air to air and air to ground guns in AH by far.

The only thing I fear in a Panzer IV is an IL2.  I dont fear other Panzer IV tanks because I can kill them on equal terms, I dont fear Tigers because I can kill them and because like hunting them.  I fear Il2s because they can destroy or disable my Panzer IV  in a split second and there isnt squat I can do about it.

As far as the Ju87G 37mm Stuka  goes, if properly modeled and free to use it would make every reasonable perk tank useless because it would do the same thing them, or even worse, as the IL2 does to the current PanzerIV.

[Tails]

Kweassa,

I'm still of the opinion that the Stuka-G would not be as devastating as you think. Namely for the reason that even  a Spitfire Mark ONE can make it's life miserable. A tank force with no air cover or AAA? Yeah, that would be a turkey shoot,  but that's already true with the Hurri-D and IL-2 (and the Lanc dweebs. Cant forget about them).

The Stuka-G would give you crunchies more of a reason to call us pile-it's in to make sure the red to green ratio in the sky is in your favor