Stuka Tank Buster for the planeset

[Purzel]

Having read all that was brought up I still think the Stuka would go well without being perked.

Right now there is almost nothing that a tiger driver has to fear, especially once the ord is killed. This would be a weapon with certain challanges but advantages as well. I think it would be a very good addition.

Its not like having a Jet with 37mm guns that is almost untouchable or something. If there is air cover or a good amount of AA-GVs running around, these Stukas will fall from the sky like flies.

They are big, slow, and have to get very close to hit and have a chance of actually disabling a Tiger. With the reciol and what else is there to make the life of the Stukas diffcult, I think they wont be unbalancing, but they would and should have an affect on the GV-arena. "Dont up a Tiger where you dont have air-superiority", just like "Dont up a Spit 14 from a vulched field".

There are unperked GVs, and an ostie should be able to hold well in a duell.

But, it all doesnt matter. I'd say add it. It doesnt matter if we add it perked or unperked. There will always be the possibillity of changing the perk-price so that the arena stays balanced. I'd say this plane would ba a good addition, because it has some faults. It is not the Monster plane, it has just guns that can kill GVs very good. Apart from that the plane is crap.

So with this plane there are good chances that it wont need perking because its easy prey for any GV except for tanks.

Take an M16. You can steer with the pedals and you have good guns with good flightpaths. Such a stuka should have big problems killing you.

[JB73]

ill finally throw my 2¢ in on this fire.

for our squad (by choice as we all have stated numerous times) flies only LW.

we do not have a single plane that can strafe a tank.

the reduction on penetration of the 20mm and below has crippled the LW planes against GV's entirely.

i can take a 110 with the 30mm package and unload 3 passes on a panzer from the direct side or rear and not damage a single part. at the same time in a panzer i can be disabled by hispanos at will, and popcorned in 1 pass by an il2. yes popcorned by only guns, it has happened numerous times.

when AHII came out for the first 2 months we opened the planeset to get used to the new FM's and stuff. this was before the ammo penetration change. i upped a hurri IId with the 40's intenet on landing some kills of GV's just to see it could be done.

after 12 sorties and unloading all my ammo without even damaging a panzer i gave up. i came straight down on him almost augering, and firing at about D250 on the icon, before i had to pull out. i came in at 30deg from the side to kill a track, i cam in 45 deg behind to kill the engine.

not 1 time did i damage the tank and i watched numerous rounds ricchoet, though some did give the hit sprite.

heck i even hit an m16 with no less than 6 rounds with no damage to him.



i have also yet to be attacked by a hurri IId while in a GV. you want to talk about a hangar queen?!?! for those fo you claiming to easily dispatch GV's in it, i will not believe it until i see film. the plane has no use in the game as far as i can see.

the il2 on the other hand is a GV monster. if i am in any GV and an il2 is attacking me with it's guns i can be guarenteed to go to tower, unless some friendly brings me supplies to repair both my tracks, my turret, and engine before the il2 popcorns me.




all the above GV talks are about everything but the flak... which i will not get into other than losing my turret to 2 pings from seafire 303's at D1.2 has made me almost give up on GV's altogether.




for those that say take the LW 30mm, why bother? to strafe out a flak turred use .50's from 1.5k much safer and more assured htis. 30mm vs. tank armor? 90% of the rounds fired from a 110 will ricchoet off any armored GV.more than 95% off a tiger. IIRC the LW 30mm we have is an  HE round anyway, not meant for penetrating armor of any magnitude.



i say bring the stuka with the anti tank guns to AH, it's partially what the plane is designed to do especially in the later stages of the war. should it be perked? no. if it is then the il2 HAS to be perked. the il2 is a more formidible foe vs aircraft easily, and carries enough ammo to kill 5-10 GV's versus the 1-2 the supposed stuka is capable of.


lastly the "gameplay" issue of the stuak stopping GV raids. with what i know you have to be so close to fire, the pintle gun will have been shooting your pilot for 5+ seconds already, not to mention the giant lumbering target for the nearby ostwind. 1 ping the stuka is down, heck even a great shot take 2-3 hits on an il2 to down it.



remember this is a fantasy game. nothing is done like the real war because we can get away with things unlike real life. if you want to attack a base alone, or without air support of some kind, face the music.

before you bring up "possible" gameplay discrepencies you can imagine, fix the ones that are already out there. worried a few planes can stop a GV attack? what about a lone la7 or 190 stopping an entire front by strafing out barracks?

thank you for your time.

[Pongo]

I say perk it. The only problem I see with perking it is it wouldnt be available to the people who need it. The guys that are getting env restrictions against them right when they need to deal with a gaggle of tigers.

[Karnak]

JB73,

Nice list of extreme exagerations.

I assure you that attacking a Panzer IV H with a Mossie's guns is far more dangerous to the Mossie than to the Panzer.  I speak from personal experience on the Mossie's end.  Disable the Panzer?  Good bloodly luck.

As to the Il-2, well, maybe you're that much better than I, though your Hurri IID account doesn't indicate so, but in my experience the Il-2 has enough ammo to kill one Panzer and disable another.  If I get very, very lucky I might be able to get five.  Against Tigers I've never had any success without using bombs.

As to you're claim of having lost an Osti's turret to .303s from a Seafire at D1.2, that is just flat out impossible.  AH doesn't even track .303s that far.  Try going offline, take a Hurri I or Spit I and set the target at 1000 yards.  Fire at the target.  There will be no hit marks on it.

The Osti's turret is more vulnerable it is true, but not nearly what you claim.  If the Osti doesn't see me and I come in at a very shallow angle, firing the quad of Hispanos at the turret the whole way in, breaking off at 100 yards I will almost always get the turret.  If I come in at a high angle I get the turret less often.  If the Osti sees me making my move, I die.

[JB73]

i can kill an osty's turret from straight down about 65% of the time with my cannons, but i personally have lost more turrets to seafires (defending a vulched base with an ostwind aginst a CV attack is the most general time i take up an osty anymore) maybe im having oddball PC problems, but that the CNO skuzzy said mine was working fine, and i am on a rock solid cable connection at home...

either way i heay "zip zip" of 303 mg hits, and my turret goes smoking as im trying to turn into the cluprit.

this happens more with 303's than anything in the game, i have (rarely but have) survived 5-6 passes of .50's to the turret, but never has a 303 missed the target. maybe it is like the pilot wound thing going on who knows, bu i assure you i lose the turret to them.

i suck in an il2, cant hit a thing, but i die every time one attackes my panzer.



as far as the mossie goes.. i never mentioned it. i did mention hispanos, mainly from spits and typh's.


i'd be willing to bet though that the stuka with that tiny ammo load would be hard as heck to hit anything, especially in the trees. i'd also say probably 2/3 of the player base wouldnt have the aim to hit a tank in the right spot to cause major damage, i know after 2.5 years i can't do it. he11 i dont know where to shoot a panzer with another panzer to get that instant kill everyone does. even if i did i can not aim and hit a specific part of the tank unless within 100 yards, then i still dont hit where i want the round to go.

how many players have you watched blaze away with guns and hit nothing? 1/2 the player base doesnt have the patience to fire 1-2 round bursts anyway, what makes you think the induction of 1 plane will change that?


(oh and BTW i never said I could shoot out a osty turret with a 303, i can barely do it with cannons.) ill start filming all my GV runs just for you though if you'd like.

[Karnak]

I was using the Mossie as my example because it is, by far, the best Hispano platform in AH.  It has four of them, with more ammo, and they are concentrated in the belly with no convergence issues.  If the Mossie has trouble, the Spit or Typh will have even more.

[Urchin]

Il-2 will knock out the turret on the Tiger with the 23mm if you come in at about a 45 degree or steeper angle.  Same as a Hurri-2D, only the Hurri-2D usually needs less hits to do it (one hit often does the trick).

Oh, and regarding Hispanos... the best "tankbuster" would be the Hurri-2C in my opinion.  The Hizookas have had their penetration reduced, but they'll still go through at 300-400 yards in a relatively steep dive.  I don't have a problem with that, since that is well within the historical range of penetration.  The main reason the Hurri-2C would be better is that it can get closer, in a steeper dive, than something like a Typhoon or Mossie.  The Spitfire V is a relatively good "tankbuster" as well, although it only has two Hispanos you can make very good use of them by making relatively steep dives at short ranges.

[mauser]

I'm not sure whether I would like to see the Stuka G or one of the heavier gunned HS-129's in AHII (37mm or 50mm, probably not the 75mm), but I'd appreciate either.  

mauser

[MOSQ]

To sum up the thread:

I think everyone (except maybe Kweassa) thinks the Stuka 87-G would be a good addition to the planeset.

It adds a LW anti-tank plane to fight the new Russian T-34 s in the SE arena.

It's not an UBER plane like the B-29 or several of the discussed end of war fighters. It is in fact a plane that was obsolete in 1940 in all respects, got a revival in the anti-tank mode, but was then replaced by FW's by late 1944.

The Stuka already exists in the plane set, so it would not require starting from scratch for HTC. Since none of us work at HTC, we don't know what the issues really are for adding a plane in AHII. Could HTC simply add gun pods to the 87-D and call it a 87-G, using the AHI modeling, or do we have to wait for AHII modeling, which could be a couple of years from now till they work down to the Stuka?

The only issue among us as players, is should it be perked? HTC introduced the F4U-1C as a free plane, and after a bit it was decided it needed a small perk price. I hope the same happens here, introduce it, see what happens, and add a small perk if it's needed.

I'd like to thank everyone for their valuable feedback on this thread. That's what makes this community so interesting and keeps AHII alive and well.

PYRO or I COAD, any feedback on the JU87-G idea for us?

[Nefarious]

I read the whole post, Because I would like to see the JU87G with the 37mm Cannons, Ive heard that Stuka Pilots racked up numerous Kills with the Guns.

But also it would have been a very dangerous task, not only on the Russian Front, but in the Aces High MA.

Tony Williams,

Whats the difference between the 37mm carried by the Stuka and the 37mm PAK guns the German Army used. Because If i'm not mistaken wasnt the 37mm PAK basically useless by 1943? Even in the early years of the War in Russia 41/42, 37mm Guns were called Door Knockers, bouncing off Soviet KV-1's and T-34's.

[MOSQ]

Kweassa,

To quote from Tony:

"The BK 3,7 with Hartkernmunition could indeed penetrate up to 140mm, but that was in ideal conditions: 100m, and 90 degree striking angle. Penetration fell off sharply as the striking angle worsened and the range increased. That's why Rudel eventually had his guns harmonised at 100m - it was to stand a  chance of penetrating the Russian tanks. "

I doubt the Stuka will be the UBER tank killer you invision. Weapon harmonization at 100 meters. Holy Cow! The Tigers pintle gun will have you in pieces by 300, much less 100!

I can see a whole lot of augers happening if the Stukas are pulling out of an attack at less than 100 meters.



Tony,
I got this data from your excellent web page, Thanks.

BK 3,7
 Cartridge Size: 37x263B
 Cartridge Weight: 405 gms
 Muzzle Velocity: 1,140 m/s
 Muzzle Energy: 263,000 joules
 Gun Weight: 295 kgs
 Gun Length: 363 cm
 Rate of Fire: 160rpm
 
 

Thanks,
Mosquito

[Tony Williams]

To add a little more info, the 37mm PaK used a different cartridge from the BK 3,7. It normally fired a 680g AP at 762 m/s, but was available later with an APCR PzGr.40 shot (like the Hartkern) of 350 g at 1,030 m/s, obviously less powerful than the BK round. It could penetrate:
79mm/100m/90 degrees, 68mm/100m/60 degrees, 50mm/500m/90 degrees, 40mm/500m/60 degrees.

The reason why airborne anti-tank guns were more effective than ground-based one of the same power was that they could get very close before firing, and could always attack at the tank's most vulknerable angle (Rudel preferred the rear). Their performance was also enhanced somewhat by the plane's forward speed.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

[Kurfürst]

I have a graph on the 3.7cm BK somewhere, but can`t find it. Anyway, I clearly remember that it was effective at all practical ranges against the majority of tanks in service with the enemy, so this only at 100m, perfect angle etc. thing is a bit of a myth. The BK 3.7cm WAS a horrible tin can opener, it had it all for that. Perhaps a more relevant reason for Rudel and others was not found in problems with penetration, but after-penetration effects, a roughly 10-15mm core that flew inside the tank could do little to take it out of the battle. That same core of the 3.7cm APCR, penetrating into the engine compartment, punching through the soft engine block like hot knife through butter 'fixed' the engine for good on the other hand, effectively neutralizing the tank, and taking it out of service for a few days at least. It could explode right away of course, and the large engine top of the T-34 presented a weakly protected, easy to hit, vulnerable target...

[Urchin]

I think the main difference is the Stukas were shooting the gun at the thinner top and rear armor, as opposed to the frontal armor.. I could be wrong though.

[Waffle]

just posted a good article on the hs129 in this forum. hehe 75mm