Author Topic: Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg  (Read 2486 times)

Offline Pongo

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #90 on: October 15, 2004, 12:56:14 AM »
Mission type orders. You attribute that to Canadians?
You think each of the 2.2 million Germans under arms in 1940 were briefed personaly on all objectives in the battle of france?
You think that the Germans never had a concept of the focal point of battle. They have a world that means only that. schwerepunkt or something like that.
Combined arms you may be able to prove that it occured first to the canadians.  But I doubt it.

Surfaces and Gaps. That sounds canadian all right.

Offline Thrawn

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #91 on: October 15, 2004, 01:20:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Mission type orders. You attribute that to Canadians?


You ridecule, but you don't say who did come up with it.


Quote
You think each of the 2.2 million Germans under arms in 1940 were briefed personaly on all objectives in the battle of france?


You are misrepresenting what Habu said.  He never said anything like all the military knowing what all the objectives are, he said.

"There are two elements (or contracts) to mission type orders. One element is the commanders' intent. This is a long-term vision of how he wants to attack the enemy and the final result he wishes to achieve. The short term and small slice of the intent is the order relating to a specific point within the accomplishment of a wider vision or mission. The key to success is ensuring a particular subordinate understands the commanders' intent two levels up, and those two levels below understand the order. Mission type orders can be thought of in very simple terms as centralized planning and decentralized execution."


Habu, you could have avoided almost 2 pages of BS if you had made your agruement at the beginning.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 01:36:42 AM by Thrawn »

Offline straffo

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #92 on: October 15, 2004, 01:52:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
all of you are wrong, it was my US Marines (devil dogs) that won WW1 at the battle of bellou woods.

bois Belleau

Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Mission type orders. You attribute that to Canadians?
You think each of the 2.2 million Germans under arms in 1940 were briefed personaly on all objectives in the battle of france?
You think that the Germans never had a concept of the focal point of battle. They have a world that means only that. schwerepunkt or something like that.
Combined arms you may be able to prove that it occured first to the canadians.  But I doubt it.

Surfaces and Gaps. That sounds canadian all right.


That would be Clausewitz's "schwerpunkt" added to the "Zentrum der Kraft und Bewegung" as described in his Vom Kriege book.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 01:57:24 AM by straffo »

Offline Habu

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #93 on: October 15, 2004, 08:55:04 AM »
Surfaces and Gaps:

Surfaces are enemy strengths, also referred to as hard spots. Gaps are enemy weaknesses, also referred to as soft spots.

 The commander strives to match the combined arms strength against the enemy’s weakness. Because of the fluid nature of war, gaps are rarely be permanent and will usually be fleeting. To exploit them requires flexibility and speed.  The British method of Central inflexible planning in WW1 was unable to exploit these gaps as it was too slow to respond. They were gone by the time a plan had been drawn up and anyway the troops were unable to execute such plans quick enough due to the lack of mission type planning.

Once gaps are located, exploitation by fast-moving, mobile forces is critical. Exploitation usually occurs at a gap and extends the destruction of the enemy by maintaining continuous offensive pressure. Exploitation destroys the enemy’s cohesion. In a classic demonstration of maneuver warfare, the commander aims to render the enemy incapable of effectively resisting by shattering his moral, mental, and physical cohesion and his ability to fight as an effective, coordinated whole.

Simply put in Blitzkrieg the objective is to advance rapidly by avoiding enemy strengths and focusing efforts against the enemy’s weaknesses.

In the Battle at the Canal du Nord the Canadians demonstrated graphically the concept of Surfaces and Gaps.

The objective of getting past the Canal, a critical defensive barrier in the Hindenburg line was given to the Canadians. This was a flooded canal, 30 metres in width with a dry section to the south. The British General Haig wrote the battle orders for the Canadians directing them to attack the enemy in their position of greatest strength, across a canal and into a fortified German trench.  Curry flatly rejected the orders.

With the support of General Byng, Currie had bridges quickly assembled and crossed the dry section of the canal at night, surprising the Germans with an attack in the morning. A classic gap exploitation. The effectiveness of Canadian engineers, for whom Haig had no use was also demonstrated.  Innovative combined arms thinking with mission planning won the battle.

After crossing the canal the Canadians exploited the german gap further by splitting their forces; attacking behind the German positions to the left and taking Bourlon Wood to the right of the crossing. Classic blitzkrieg encircling.

By October 1, the Germans had thrown 6 divisions into the fight.

Hardly the bled white force you and others mention Pogo. The tactics won the battle, the victory was not due to the lack of troops on the German side.

Another Blitzkrieg tenet was demonstrated with is a part of the Surface and Gap theory. As enemy cohesion breaks down, the exploitation may develop into a pursuit. The pursuit seeks to annihilate the enemy force once resistance has completely broken down. The condition of the enemy may determine whether an exploitation becomes a pursuit. The opportunity to conduct a pursuit is often fleeting and must be seized quickly by the commander.  An encircling force must have continuous fire support and greater mobility than the enemy.

On October 9 the Canadians attacked Cambrai and by October 11 had secured the entire district with their 37 kilometer advance into enemy territory. This action had resulted in the liberation of 54 towns and villages. A classic pursuit style fight exploiting the gap created by the breakdown of the German cohesion.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 08:24:56 PM by Habu »

Offline Habu

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #94 on: October 15, 2004, 09:01:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn

Habu, you could have avoided almost 2 pages of BS if you had made your agruement at the beginning.


Thrawn when I read the simplistic historical interpretations of the orgins of the blitzkrieg the glossing over of major events in WW1 such as Vimy Ridge and the crossing of the Canal du Nord I am amazed at how superficial some sources are.

Massed attack and week long artillery barrages were standard military practice in WW1 and always failed. The adoption of some simple but very advanced battle concepts is what allowed the Canadians to win where others failed.

Maybe because Curry and the other Canadian Generals came up through the ranks and had no prior misconceptions or class system like the British Generals it allowed innovative ideas to be adopted much more readily.

I wanted to see what others here had to think. No sense coming right out at the begining and spoon feeding your ideas to everyone.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 08:25:48 PM by Habu »

Offline Furball

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #95 on: October 15, 2004, 09:03:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Habu
Furball I am suprised after reading that you do not see the Japan did not adopt ideas originally proposed by Mitchell in their attack on Pearl Habor.

In 1924 the US general staff could not even believe a plane could sink a ship (until after much resistance Mitchel got permission to show them how). In light of the backwards of the military thought at this time for the man to write a 300 page report outlining that Japan was the next big enemy to the US and how they could attack the US was simply amazing. He was right too and his senario played out. Other authors took his ideas about an attack on Pearl Harbor and built on them and they were know to the Japanese.

His ideas were ignored and damned by faint praise as so often in the military. He was court marshalled later as well. Innovative thought had no place in the US military in the 20's.


You said the Japanese based their attack on his report.  I dont care what the US thought at the time that is not what we were discussing.  

As i said, all i can see from that link you posted, from what of it i read.. is that Mitchell prophesised the attack.  The japanese did not deveolop the planof their attack from it.  All mitchell did was prove that ships could be sunk by aircraft.  

I guess in your mind proving that ships can be sunk is enough for you to say "OMG!! the japanese based their attack on it because he said ships can be sunk!"  and "OMG! the canadians took some ground so that must be the inspiration for blitzkrieg!!!"

Quote
Originally posted by Habu
Furball I am suprised after reading that you do not see the Japan did not adopt ideas originally proposed by Mitchell in their attack on Pearl Habor.
 


I know!!! i have a great idea!!! lets forrow the attack which our enemy expects us to do and has arready pubrished!!! they will never know!!!

You seem to make a point, then are deviating from it when making a reply.  Lets not forget the thread title here: -

Quote
Originally posted by Habu
Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
 


and the other comments you made in this thread which i completely disagree with: -

 
Quote
Originally posted by Habu
But Japan developed the plan to attack Pearl Harbour from a report published by an American many years before the war.
 


Quote
Originally posted by Habu
Canadian pilots were the best of the best in WW1. That is true Furball. Barker Collishaw Bishop and probably the best of the war McLaren.
 


Yes they were very good and all credit to them, but by no means were the canadian pilots the "best of the best".  Each country had outstanding pilots.
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Offline Habu

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #96 on: October 15, 2004, 09:16:35 AM »
Furball you seem to be the one jumping to conclusions. Mitchell showed the US chief of staff the vunerabilities of the US forces especially at Pearl Habor.

Why don't you investigate the orgins of the plan to attack Pearl Harbor and you will see that the idea the Japanese read and used his report in the planning of the attack is credible.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2004, 08:22:56 PM by Habu »

Offline Furball

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #97 on: October 15, 2004, 09:27:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Habu
Why don't you investigate the orgins of the attack on Pearl Harbor and you will see that the thought the Japanese read and used his report in the planning is credible.


maybe.. but i dont really care enough. unless someone shows me the info straight up. as i said - i was using the link you gave me as a basis.  and from that i can see no way that the japanese attack was developed from the mitchell report.  Just because mitchell foresaw it, it doesnt mean it was used to develop the attack.

Quote
Originally posted by Habu
Furball you seem to be the one jumping to conclusions.


nah, i have disagreed with you from the start.
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Offline Habu

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #98 on: October 15, 2004, 09:38:44 AM »
To see how point in my original post about the Canadians showing the Germans the Blitzkrieg compare the battle at the Canal du Nord with Guderian's breakthough at Sedan.

Guderian intent in his blitzkrieg attack on France was to secure a bridgehead over the Meuse at Sedan.

On May 11 1940 lead elements of the 1st Panzer Division were 5 kilometers from the French border and 20 km from Sedan. The next day the entire corps advanced to the east bank of the Meuse just opposite Sedan in just 4 hours.

Guderian spent the entire morning of May 13 visiting his three division commanders conducting face to face coordination and explaining his aims for the upcoming operation. Here we see mission type order planning.

The French had not yet panicked (just like the Germans when the Canadians reached the Canal du Nord in WW1) as they expected the river to be a major logistical barrier and the fact they had a major system of fortifications defending the line. They expected the Germans to stop and consolidate for several days or perhaps a week. Long enough for them to move an additional 11 divisions to the area.

Guderian identified a Gap in the French defenses and realized if he could cross quickly he could exploit that gap and get his panzers into the open country on the west side of the river before the French could close the Gap.

Guderians XIX Panser Corps crossed the Meuse on the fly exactly as the Canadians had crossed the Canal du Nord in WW1. After a combined arms bombardment of the river defenses by the Luftwaffe and artillery, infantry and engineers crossed the river in inflatable boats and secured the west bank. During the night of May 13 engineers managed to erect a bridge across the Meuse (just like the Canadians at the Canal du Nord) and Guderian got 150 armored vehicles across the bridge that night.

The similarities between Guderians action and that of the Canadians at Canal du Nord are striking. And both victories resulted in the breakdown in the cohesion of the enemy forces which was quickly exploited resulting in major gains over the following weeks.

Offline Pongo

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #99 on: October 15, 2004, 10:31:33 AM »
Well I might grant you that the candians did the first modern assualt river crossing. But that isnt blitzkrieg.
Also
you have not made a case that prior to 1918 no german general briefed his battalion comanders on thier mission befor an attack.
I submit you will not be able to establish that.

Offline DREDIOCK

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #100 on: October 15, 2004, 10:43:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Habu
It is interesting to see how a country can become the best in the world at something and then let it all go to nothing.

No politician has valued the Canadian miltary after the wars and our legacy is one of teaching others how to win in war and then forgetting what we developed, only to see our tactics and technology adoped by others and used with great success later.


thats cause at heart your not fighters. Your lovers.
Probably comes from the french heritage while your ability to use Technology undoubtedly comes from the Brits.

Which I suppose is a good thing. You only fight when you haveto.

after all when was the last time you saw countries HATING Canada?
You have people from all over the world hating everyone from Russia to Isreal to France to the USA.

Nobody hates the Canadians. Cept maybe the general population in southern Fla which you seem to like to invade every winter LOL

Your like the quiet kid sister sitting  in the corner.

Quiet, semicute. but not worth messing with unless drunk.
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Offline Thrawn

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #101 on: October 15, 2004, 10:50:28 AM »
Habu, it's not spoon feeding, it's presenting your arguement.


Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Also you have not made a case that prior to 1918 no german general briefed his battalion comanders on thier mission befor an attack.  I submit you will not be able to establish that.


He doesn't have to.  The implication is that he has to establish that it never in histroy did any one use the tennets by which he describes a blitzkrieg.

To properly refute his agrument some needs to either say his definition of blitzgkrieg is wrong, or if it is accepted, were it had been used in history before.

Offline john9001

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #102 on: October 15, 2004, 12:28:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK


Nobody hates the Canadians. Cept maybe the general population in southern Fla which you seem to like to invade every winter LOL

:)


hey , we like Canadian tourests down here, y'all come on down, bring money, enjoy the sunshine.  :cool:

Offline Ripper29

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #103 on: October 15, 2004, 12:37:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
hey , we like Canadian tourests down here, y'all come on down, bring money, enjoy the sunshine.  :cool:



1.3 billion in 2002.....  well not me personally but come December I hope to do my part...:D

Offline Mister Fork

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Canadians showed Germany the Blitzkrieg
« Reply #104 on: October 15, 2004, 01:29:03 PM »
During WWII, the Germans in Italy had a name for us Canucks: Furchtsoldaten.  In point, if a German unit knew they were up against a Canadian unit, they would retreat.

Why? We tend not to take prisioners. Ever. It's why we advanced so far during D-DAY (with 1/3 of the soldiers on exactly the same German strenghts).  Taking prisioners slows you down. Kill them, and you can keep on moving forward. :D

It was a well known fact, even up to when I got out in 97, that we don't take prisioners.

Besides, the training the average Canadian soldier receives is equal to a US Ranger.  Imagine having an army consisting entirely of US Rangers. :eek:
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