Author Topic: Propwash - should it be modelled?  (Read 902 times)

Offline Mister Fork

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« on: October 14, 2004, 01:50:38 PM »
This is from Shane's Earl's Millers posting:
Quote
1st Lt. Joe H. Canion of the 345th Fighter Squadron was climbing out in weather as #3 (element leader) when he got in the propwash from #2 (wingman to flight leader) when the wingman moved from left to right wing unexpectedly during a left turn.  

Canion's P-47D flipped upside down and into a spin. He bailed out at 1500 feet over Valentano, landing near the aircraft. The aircraft's bombs were not armed and the pilot was ok.
Is it safe to assume that propwash close up could have drastic effects on your aircraft - i.e. cause it to flatspin/stall out?
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Offline Karnak

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2004, 02:14:05 PM »
I'd like to see it modeled and I gave a quick and dirty description of  a crude method to do so given the limits of home computing power in the old AH2 Beta forum.
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Offline Crumpp

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2004, 07:51:52 PM »
Wonder how prop wash will effect trying get a gun solution?

Crumpp

Offline Mister Fork

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2004, 09:54:41 PM »
I guess if that your really close on a guys 6,  propwash will make it hard if not down right impossible to get a good snapshot, especially buffs.
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Offline Guppy35

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2004, 02:10:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
I guess if that your really close on a guys 6,  propwash will make it hard if not down right impossible to get a good snapshot, especially buffs.


one of the things I remember from taking flying lessons way back when, was when the instructor had me turn a nice easy circle at night.  He had me hit my own 'wake' so to speak.  I knew it when I hit the disturbed air I'd created.

It would be a much bigger issue for the bomber drivers as the real life guys fought prop wash all the time in those formations.

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Offline Grendel

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2004, 06:31:55 AM »
Propwash has largest effect in medium ranges. If you get near enough the target you're actually in calmer area.

Quote from the Finnish Air Force tactics lecture, 1943:


Shooting

Pay attention to the following points:
1. Always keep both eyes open while shooting.
2. Don't jerk the plane around with sudden movements during aiming; handle it smoothly and gently instead.
3. Don't get carried away while shooting, and keep an eye on your six, so that nobody can get behind your tail.
4. Never use tracers to aim. You can check your lead by tracers, but always correct your aim with your gun-sight.

When shooting from dead six, it is best to get about 20 meters from the enemy, where the prop-wash that was shaking your plane earlier settles down. It is like getting from "heavy seas" to a calm "backwater".


Source:
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html

Offline CMC Airboss

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2004, 01:42:46 PM »
Unless you've been through it, its difficult to appreciate the adverse affect that prop wash, slipstream, and wingtip vortices have to the flying qualities of your airplane.  At the very least, the turbulence is enough to spoil a guns solution.  At its worst, it can send your airplane into uncontrollable flight or even structural failure.  I'll refer to the American Airlines A-300 whose vertical fin snapped off as the pilot tried to recover from the instability caused by flying through another airliner's slip stream.  I had a flight instructor who crashed twice as a result of flying through a P-3C Orion's propwash - once during final approach and once during taxying.  The second time ended his flying career as the airplane lifted off the ground and landed inverted.  Both aircraft were destroyed.  

At the close-in distances that we fly in AH2, modeling the prop wash would make for a rather unsatisfying flying experience.

MiG

Offline Raptor

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2004, 04:14:44 PM »
"GOOSE I CANT PULL OUT!"

Offline mars01

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2004, 05:41:15 PM »
I would like to see prop wash modelled, most definately.

Offline MOSQ

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2004, 06:16:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CMC Airboss
I had a flight instructor who crashed twice as a result of flying through a P-3C Orion's propwash - once during final approach and once during taxying.  The second time ended his flying career as the airplane lifted off the ground and landed inverted.  Both aircraft were destroyed.  

At the close-in distances that we fly in AH2, modeling the prop wash would make for a rather unsatisfying flying experience.

MiG


Would bring a new meaning to the term KILLSHOOTERED.

Offline Crumpp

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2004, 06:42:21 PM »
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I would like to see prop wash modelled, most definately.


Me too.  Pilots had to deal with it RL.  If this is a simulation then lets simulate it!

Crumpp

Offline Booky

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2004, 04:35:27 AM »
Heh, I flew through the jetwash from two A-10's last week and about crapped my pants.  I could have swore that they were at a lower alt than I was at the time that ATC advised me of the wake turbulance.  I was flying level at 6500 and they must have been climbing fast because it wasn't another 20 seconds and I hit a nice jar.  Was kind of fun though, not to mention the UFO that we seen a little later just south of Phoenix, even ZAB didn't know what it was but they did ask us if we seen it since they showed a radar return with no altitude signal (no transponder).  Since when do flying objects have two bright ars orange lights instead of common regulation lights?

Offline Tails

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2004, 01:42:18 PM »
Problem with those kinds of effects is that it can put a real strain on a computer to model it with any kind of realism. Look at X-plane for an example of a sim that has to somewhat cut back on graphics, because the modelling is already pushing your system's limits.
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Offline Karnak

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2004, 02:53:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tails
Problem with those kinds of effects is that it can put a real strain on a computer to model it with any kind of realism. Look at X-plane for an example of a sim that has to somewhat cut back on graphics, because the modelling is already pushing your system's limits.

Frequently such things can be "faked" without losing much fidelity and without putting the strain of actually simulating the effect on the computer.

I'd need to know more about how prop wash actually behaves, but I think I can see a comparitively cheap, for the processor cycles, way of faking it.
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Offline g00b

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Propwash - should it be modelled?
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2004, 05:53:53 PM »
YES!

g00b