Author Topic: A discussion about ground vehicles  (Read 763 times)

Offline Sabre

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« on: October 14, 2004, 07:43:40 PM »
Armor Tactics Discussion

This modest dissertation is meant to provide a foundation for a deeper discussion of armor tactics in Aces High.  It is a compilation of my own experiences of late, as I attempt to more fully explore ground combat in the Aces High II environment.

The advent of Aces High II ushered in a new era of ground combat into this game, due to the new richness of the terrain engine.

Guidelines:
1. Stop, look and listen.  Ground vehicles are the only place where sound becomes as important as sight, especially in line-of-site restricted terrain such as forests.  You can hear a GV coming from a considerable distance (exactly how far, I'm not sure), and stereo sound allows us to narrow the direction to the source down to two possible bearings (180 reciprocals of each other).  Unfortunately, having a Surround Sound speaker system doesn't seem to help narrow it further to a single bearing to the sound source.  Nonetheless, when hunting enemy GVs, it helps to regularly stop and shut off your own engine, in order to get a bearing on the enemy.  When working alone, this is no problem. When working with one or more other players, it takes coordination, as all must stop and shut off their engines in order to eliminate friendly sound sources.  Also, never do this out in the open if you can help it. I always try to find a hedge, grove or trees, or low ridge to stop next to.  I try to put it on the "likely threat axis" to reduce the risk to my self while stationary (and vulnerable).  If I need to see around the obstacle, to scan for the enemy, I creep to the edge (see "Creeping" below), but still keep most of my tank hidden.

2. Creeping. Restarting you GV's engine is time consuming and noisy. Ever stop your tank, shut down your engine to wait for that unsuspecting enemy to walk across your sites, then realize that tree is right in your line of site?  Or how about the situation where you're engine is dead but you can still get the other guy if you can just get out from behind that building?  Then there's the situation where you know there's an enemy GV out there, engine shut down, but you simply can't see him from where you're parked.  Do you start your engine in order to move, but also giving away your own position?  Not a problem. Some may not realize this, but tanks and other GV's will move without the engine running.  Simply place the tank in a forward gear (if you want to move forward) or reverse (if you need to move back) and push the stick forward a tad.  The tank will creep forward or reverse.  Sometimes you need to repeatedly nudge the stick to keep it moving, especially on flat ground.  Obviously, if you're on a hill, you can't creep up the hill; only down.  However, it's a great trick if you've stopped on the reverse slop, but have exposed too much of your tank above the ridge.

3. Life's a ditch. This is my way of say, avoid the high ground when moving.  Unless you're taking up a firing position, stay to the low ground where possible.  Also, never cross a ridge line at right angles. If you've drawn up to a reverse-slope firing position, but decide to move forward, don't roll forward over the top of the ridge.  Instead, roll backwards until you're shielded completely by the ridge, then turn and go around the ridge if possible.  If the ridgeline is too long, at least get a running start before cresting the ridge, and do it at an oblique angle.

4. Now you see me, now you don't. The eye is drawn to movement. Tooling along at road-speed may be fun, but it's also an open invitation to an ambush.  Scoot-and-shoot is the order of the day.  If you're fairly confident there are no enemies around, you don't need to stop as often.  If there's bears in the woods, so to speak, then dash from one bit of cover to another.  When stopped, shut down the engine and listen/look.  If you have a buddy or two with you, even better.  One tank can take up an over watch, or guard, position while one or more dashes ahead to the next bit of cover.  That way, if an enemy tank fires at the moving tanks, the guard tank will spot the firing point.  If the guard tank has a clear shot, he can take it; if not, he can at least lay smoke in front of it, while directing the moving tanks' attention to the threat.

What I'd Still Like to See:  We've seen some great enhancements to the immersiveness of the flight-sim portion of AH, particularly in the area of damage modeling and damage visual effects; such things as the visual representation of damage (bullet holes in the canopy and wings, engine oil on the windscreen, blood on the canopy) have provided immediate clues as to the state of the plane and the pilot. Unfortunately, the ground vehicles have not seen the same level of upgrades.  First, I'd like to see a change to the sounds of enemy fire hitting my GV.  A glancing shot that ricochets off; a direct, but non-penetrating hit; a penetrating round that does damage...all these should have a slightly different sound, as should different classes of weapons.  Second, penetrating (i.e. damaging) but non-lethal hits should cause thick interior smoke.  Likewise, constant firing of the main gun should cause a gradual build up of gun smoke inside tanks.  And while we're talking about damage, tanks are still way too susceptible to machine gun and cannon damage from aircraft.  I think this area needs another look.  Another nice-to-have would be graphical damage when a turret hit penetrates, such as the turret blowing off or at least a chunk missing.  When a lethal tank hit occurs, it would be nice if sometimes you had a chance to bail out of the burning tank before it explodes.  Vehicles moving on dry/dusty surfaces should have a rooster tail of dust trailing out behind them (tan in color, if you please), the length of which would be proportional to the speed they're traveling at. Finally -- and this would be a toughy -- it would be very cool if you could dismount from a vehicle temporarily, in order to scout on foot within, say, a hundred yards of your GV.

Please feel free to express your own ideas and experiences.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline thebest1

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2004, 08:18:54 PM »
Vehicles are way way way way too hard to kill from a plane specially the flak the turret should be weak right since the man arming the gun is EXPOSED

my 2 cents

Offline Killjoy2

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2004, 08:28:41 PM »
I vote for being able to leave your tank to scout.  As long as we can leave a trail of bread cumbs to find our way back.

Group tactics are evolving also.  When we send out tigers we also send a supply vehicle for support.  

Flanking, fields of fire, spotters.  some of the best action is air/ground attacks.  

When GVs are attacking a field the enema has to fly around low to counter when over the hill comes our cap.  

Wheehaw  Now thats turn and burn.

Offline B17Skull12

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2004, 10:33:16 PM »
i would really like to see the introduction of field artillery.

It would bring in another very fun factor for GV's.
II/JG3 DGS II

Offline MOIL

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2004, 11:58:28 PM »
Great thoughts:aok

But this is a flight "sim" not a GV game. We wouldn't want it to become Aces Low would we? Then the game would attract even MORE players!

Offline DamnedRen

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2004, 06:08:33 AM »
I think Aces Low will be the next helicopter game to hit the net.

Offline bj229r

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2004, 06:16:20 AM »
Vehicles are way too hard to kill?? A @#$#$# F4F kilt the gun in my osti a few days ago in 1 strafe pass
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers

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Offline Crumpp

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2004, 07:00:14 AM »
Quote
i would really like to see the introduction of field artillery.


Great Idea.  Been thinking about this one lately.  

IMO it would be best to tie the "Artillery" to spotter planes.  Only certain "controller" planes like the FW189 or Fiestrel Storch would be able to use it.  Since these planes are unarmed or very lightly armed they will need "escort".

How I see it working:

1.  A/C spots targets

2.  Pilot hit "esc" and calls up a "Call for fire screen"  in the Pilots menu

3.  Usin the map he clicks on where he believes the target is located.

4.  He selects from a short "fire mission" list

     a.  Single round smoke
     b.  Fire for effect Smoke
          1.  Square beaten zone
          2.  Linear beaten zone
     c.  Fire for effect HE
          1.  Square beaten zone
          2.  Linear beaten zone (100m x 1000m)

Artillery is an extremely powerful support tool.  One well placed barrage can take a large area.  This would keep it from:

Unbalancing the game

Add to the GV/Air Support Teamwork

Just my thoughts

Crumpp

Offline DREDIOCK

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2004, 09:05:54 AM »
All good thoughts

One of the things I like doing is sitting on a reverse slope of a hill  and letting the GVs come to me and bushwhacking them.
I find this works particularly well if your alone and defending against incomming GVs rather then spawn camping.

Two reasons.
When spawn camping eventually morre GVs will up then you can fire at at the same time and one is bound to get you eventually.

Next by not camping at the spawn point your making them waste time driving to your position

My ideas on Tactics are something along these lines
When you have several GVs available to you.
Send a couple M8's ahead of the main tank force to move as rapidly as possible to the enemy base.
this serves a couple of purposes.
M8's make dandy scouts and can let you know whats ahead.
They can also serve in a harrasing capacity as the tendancy of most players is to stop and shoot and chase the first GV they see instead of heading directly to the spawn point. And M8s while easy to kill can be hard to hit which often creates a kind of tunnelvision in the tanker trying to kill him. Again allowing the tanks to move up
Thus buying the tanks time to move up  and get closer to their objective.
Ideally in larger operations an M3 with troops should up as soon as possible and hide under the safety of the trees and away from the spawn area and likely places where the defenders may go and wait in case troops are taken out early at the base yoru attacking from.

Also supply M3s should accompany the main force as much as possibe
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Offline DREDIOCK

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2004, 09:08:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
Vehicles are way too hard to kill?? A @#$#$# F4F kilt the gun in my osti a few days ago in 1 strafe pass


He came in at the right angle. And thats because the osti has an open top which makes the gunners exposed
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Offline Zanth

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2004, 09:09:15 AM »
Spawn points should just be done away with.  The set-up on tank island in OsKansas is the way it ought to be over the entire map.

Offline indy007

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A discussion about ground vehicles
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2004, 10:59:13 AM »
Here's some units I'd like to see added. It would need the categories pretty much added at the same time to maintain game balance. It would also need a towing feature added. Imagine on squad night, jumping into a mix of field artillery, tractors, AA, & tank destroyers, towing them up to a hill in a tank town, and having somebody run them supplies while they shell bases. It'd be a good incentive to spawn out light & heavy tanks to assault their position or up in attack mode and fight through the ack to make runs. I'd also like to be able to run into a field, and tow home a squaddie with a dead engine. It would create new dimension in GV battles, create a more broad & viable ENY range for GVs, and encourage different styles of GV missions. It would also add an intense sense of urgency trying to up an IL-2 from a base getting rained on.

On to the vehicles!

Anti-Tank Guns: PAK38, PAK40, PAK41 (who needs engines? people powered!)

Self-Propelled Guns: Bishop, Priest, Sexton, Katyusha, Bison-II, Marder III, SU-76i, Stug III, M41M da 90/53

Field Artillery: 25 pound MK2/1, BS-3 Field Gun, ZIS-2, ZIS-3, Le.I.G. 18, M1 Long Tom 155mm gun

Light vehicles: Bren Gun Carrier, Dingo, M3 Scout Car, Jeep

Artillery Tractors: Pioneer, Diamond T, Portee, CMP Artillery Tractor, Morris Quad



or I could be completely off my rocker.

Indy007
ShiznotZ!