Questions,questions and more questions....:)

[humble]

Guess reading shaw will do that to you

I've been rereading Shaw and am redigesting alot of things. I'm primarily an angles fighter devoid of all patience (...hehe, a bad thing in this crowd... ). Over the next couple weeks I think I'm going to post 3-4 topics on stuff I'd love help with. Ideally as I understand some of these issues I'll be able to integrate them into my own flying and help some others as well.

OK, for this post I'm curious about "nose to nose" vs "nose to tail" merges (similiar and disimiliar plane types). Truthfully i use and teach "nose to nose" and I'm very sketchy on the "nose to tail" flavor of merge. From time to time I'll see em with varying effectiveness, if I'm truely neg E I'll stay away and extend...otherwise I've found the angular advantage I gain is hard to overcome in this flight model and that against most pilots I can sit "in and under" and flush em out.

would love comments from any "nose to tail" masters and any who want to mess with both a bit with me in TA.

[Jekyll]

If I understand correctly, you're talking about the difference between what Shaw refers to as 'one circle' and 'two circle' fights at the headon merge.

As a proponent of angles tactics, I can understand why you like the one circle fight      An angle fighter can surely gain a significant advantage if he's prepared to pull hard on the pole and get around his circle as quickly as possible, with the intent to reverse half way around and establish a rear position on his opponent.

But for those who prefer BnZ or pure energy tactics, the two circle merge has a lot going for it.  

1.  If you are near corner speed and hold a turn rate advantage over your opponent, you'll be able to get the first, front-quarter shot on the second and subsequent merges.

2.  With this advantage, you'll often find you can relax the G a little as the bandit approaches on those merges, allowing you to regain your energy store.

3.  In the meantime, your opponent will see you 'just' off his nose, and will be pulling as hard as he can to go for the pure headon shot - further bleeding his energy.

4.  After maybe the second or third two circle merge, your opponent will either be dead from continual front quarter shots, or his energy will be so depleted he should be an easy kill.

There is only one problem with trying this in AH - netlag!  When your FE shows your opponent about 20 degrees off a headon position, HIS FE may show that he has already achieved the headon, and he can send some bullets your way.  That's probably why the one circle merge gets as much play as it does in all online flight sims - its simply a safer way to fly.

In order to be truly effective, the two circle merge requires you to almost give your opponent a gun solution - just close enough to tempt him to keep pulling Gs and bleeding energy.  In this way, it is very similar to the perfect 'rope-a-dope' - just enough E advantage to stay out of his guns, but not so much that he knows he cannot zoom with you.

Hope this helps.

------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
'feel the heat .......'

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 06-28-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Nath-BDP]

studying turning tactics is quite pointless since everyone that knows anything about acm goes vertical on the merge in this game.

[humble]

Nath...that's how I felt. Last night I employed the "2 circle fight" for the 1st time on a yak that bounced my 38 with about 3-4k in alt and a good 50+ IAS (I'm guessing). Yes he went vertical...and it didn't matter. I was able to use the 2 circle to bleed him down over 2 remerges..and on the 3rd converted to a vertical E fight and then drove him down to the deck...I couldn't finish him (god I suck in 38 )...also he flew well but I got 2 good snap shots in with multiple flashs.

Bottom line to me is it's a very effective fighting doctrine if as Jekyll mentions...you avoid getting hosed in the process. All in all I think it's a much better neg E merge solution than my current choice's...obviously in a purely vertical plane it needs to be somewhat modified...but shaw covers that to a degree.

[Jekyll]

 

studying turning tactics is quite pointless since everyone that knows anything about acm goes vertical on the merge in this game.

Nath .. going vertical without an initial energy advantage is a good way to get KILLED in the arena    Don't forget, you can cut across a turning circle on the horizontal, as well as the vertical.

In any event, I understood Humble's original post to mainly relate to e-disadvantaged situations, in which you would definitely NOT want to go vertical on the initial merge.


------------------
C.O. Phoenix Squadron
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
'feel the heat .......'

[Kieren]

I would also add that, in order to reduce somewhat the HO risk, you dig the nose a bit on the initial merge. You don't go too deep, but enough that you put a 3rd axis of movement into the formula.

[This message has been edited by Kieren (edited 06-29-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Humble

For starters, I think you need to confirm what the other guys have been talking about...are you referring to the one circle/two circle question? Or do you have some other positional situation in mind?

The one circle fight tends to get less than positive results in AH (Positive means you ending up with a positional advantage).

First...many folks don't like the HO player and will avoid flying against him just on general principles. Second, most of the AH fighters are close enough in performance that the attacker will not be able to reverse inside the defender's turn radius unless the defender lets him (perhaps as a result of the loss of tally). To fly a one circle in the same plane as the defender, the attacker needs to have a turning radius about one half the size of the defender...and in AH that is not the case when both adversaries are turning hard relative to each other.

As a result, the outcome in AH is a series of HOs...nothing wrong with that necessarily outside the dislike that many AH pilots have for that attack.

Now let's consider your energy at the merge...and I assume that you are talking about a classic 180 out merge. As a rule, any airspeed above corner will tend to work against you in an in-plane T&B...so work the vertical to reduce your relative turn circle, regardless of which attack profile you choose (one or two circle). If you enter the merge slow (in AH, below 250 mph), then be very careful with a one circle strategy...it will anchor you within the turn circle of your adversary...if you don't 'get' him, he will surely be able to have a go at you.

Instead, opt for a two circle merge..then as your are turning back towards your adversary, analyze who's making angles on whom (where is he in your snap view?...if he is behind your wingline and getting more so, then you had better knock off the turn, lower your nose, and run for it.) If he is ahead of your 3/9 line, then you can stay in the fight...this may be a good time to low yo-yo a bit (or at least fly to his low wing) to see if you can pick up a little speed to use on the other end of the yo-yo.

Remember that two circle fights tend to stagnate into Lufberys...and this is not what you want in a multi-bogey environment like AH.

So...if you have an energy advantage, use either turn circle strategy and get out of plane with the bandit. If you are co-speed, be careful with the one circle...it will result in a HO where both you and the bandit have few options. Instead, go two circle and analyze your position early in the turn back. If you have any doubts at this point, dump and run.

Andy

[eye]

Shaw and acm tactics are nice. Putting yourself in a position where you have to turn is like loseing half the battle. Attack with alt. If you dont have it dont attack avoid. Use your alt advantage to keep out of all ho sits. Attack when a fights about to start or is going on. Hit them fast in their blind spot. If they see you dont slow down.Fly past then  rope them. You fought a great fight the other night <S> You must be improveing because you didnt chase me you extended. Btw the way you flew that i knew it was some one good wtg!

P.S. The tracer off option rules try it. Im getting easy kills all over the place. Guys dont turn You end up getting 200 yard shots. You lose long shots 400 and out but its worth it. Buffs are a little harder too. Guys just dont know your on ther 6. Its so much easier to get 200 and under shots. One shot kills

[humble]

Andy,

Coming from a AW background the HO aspect of AH is relatively new to me. As a long time Angles flier I'm pretty comfortable with the "nose to nose" style of ACM (Shaw, pg 78) vs the "nose to tail" style (Shaw, pg 78). I don't see the mention of "1 circle" or "2 circle" fights here...but based onthe diagrams I'd say we're talking a 2 circle fight. As I retool my game for AH one area i'm focusing on is the elements I discarded long ago based on the FM (and other components) of the sim (AW) I learned on. Over the last week as I've paid more attention to observing some of the pre fight, emrge and midgames I've noticed a lot of "nose to tail" options/gambits I had overlooked/ignored earlier. i appreciate all the comments and would seriously encourage anyone from the Nath/humble school of flying to revisit your basic ideas about ACM.

Hehe, EYE, thanx for the comment. As you know that type of flying is totally against my nature. i'm a sucker for any 1 on 1. what I did notice was that by employing the "nose to tail" methodology I was able to manage the encounter much more safely than i would of otherwise. You had a pretty good advantage at the start, in prior encounters of that type with you I'd usually give up at least one good snap shot. There I think i got things stabalized without really exposing myself to badly. By sticking to the nose to tail style I more or less deadlocked us.

[eye]

Hi bud  
Ill tell you this ive read most of your posts. You know what you understand acm better than i do. By far
That said think tactics. Its what i do. Set yourself up in your fav plane and work up a set. You are as good as anyone ive met here in fights now. I think its good you are furthering your understanding of acm. You are at the point of diminishing returns. You get it already i think.
Get a f4 or a 38 and work up a set or follow the best at them around for awhile. Steal their's Its what i did in aw3. I stole zazen's attack game and pal's escape game. They have served me well to this day.
Think alt, co alt is no good here. I almost never am in a ho sit because i avoid them with alt. If im in a ho sit i figure ive lost half the fight.
I hope you dont think i preaching. Im not trying to tell you what to do.
Im only telling you what works for me.
Good luck hmble if you ever move we have a spot in the airwarriors waiting for you <S>
                                                    EYE

[Dead Man Flying]

Bragging that you've stolen either Zazen's attack game OR Pal's escape game isn't going to win you many points with the AW vets here.

Points in AH maybe.  But nothing more.  Relax a little... enjoy the fight.  When you've played as long as I have, you come to realize that a game just isn't worth the sheer paranoia and nailbiting that comes with flying that way.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.  

-- Todd/DMF

[Andy Bush]

Hi Humble

Well, I dusted off my copy of Shaw and checked out the page reference...sure enough, what he refers to as a 'nose to nose' is the one circle fight.

One note about Shaw's book. He's a squid...meaning Navy puke!! The USN and the USAF sometimes use different terminology to decribe the same thing...for example, ACM means something quite different, depending on which service you fly for. (No offense to Shaw or his book...it is the best single source reference on A2A matters that you can find outside the military.)

The one circle fight is not something that many people opt for in a 1v1. For starters, it usually means giving up the tally at least for a short period of time. Secondly, the maneuver is usually a very high G maneuver...in RL, when I flew this, I would position my head against the headrest and look straight ahead before I put on the G. I flew this at 7 Gs on the G meter for the first 90 degrees of turn until I could let off the G to take a look at the bandit. I only tried this when I thought the bandit was going to be predictable enough for me to go blind for this long...at that didn't happen very often.

The situation depicted at the top of page 79 (case 1/2) is how we used to fly one of our A2A gunnery profiles against the 'dart' (a towed target).  We would merge HO with the dart at about .85 mach and hold that speed throughout the turn. Coming out of the turn, we would aim across the circle at the expected rejoin point. By position #4, we were supersonic and made high angle (90 to 135 degree) passes on the dart, usually opening fire at about 1500'. This was done using a 'fixed' sight with a radar lock on for ranging only. From merge to pull off took about 25 seconds on the average...to say the maneuver was 'sporty' is an understatement!

Lastly, the attacker in the one circle fight has laid all his cards on the table from the viewpoint of the defender. This is not a finesse maneuver...it is an in-plane 'G for brains' brute force exercise in max performance min radius turning. A wise defender will not stay in-plane against this attack. A climb above the attacker's plane of turn will force him to deplete even more energy if he stays in the turn and allows the defender to use radial g to force another HO. The outcome often is that the defender forces a HO where the attacker is climbing and the defender is descending. This allows the defender an opportunity to extend thru for a clean separation...something he may not have had if he had remained in the same plane as the attacker.

Most HOs result in a two circle (nose to tail) situation simply because it allows both pilots to keep their tallys.

Andy

[eye]

Sorry i dont understand what you mean by braging?
As far as aw vets here most are not doing very well here.
Why ? Because they dont fly tactics. They fly willy nilly around trying to kill anything. With no rhyme or reason.
Whats the difference between aw guys and wb guys?
Wb guys are better at tactics and gunnery.
Aw guys do have 1 thing on them. You know what?
Aw guys even average ones have fought many fights that have lasted longer with far tougher acm probs.Three four or five moves. Simply put as a group we can hold a line in a plane at corner speed better.Aw with its fake ho's hurt us it takes awhile to learn how to avoid them.
Once we do we can compete with anyone in this game on better than equal terms.
You dont believe me look at dingy's or rwy's score. The co of my squad roper is doing great so is cp of the nomads.Ras last i looked was doing great and im sure there's lots more.
It just takes awhile to figure out that the way to not get in a ho fight is to attack with alt.

[Dead Man Flying]

Define a criteria for "doing well."  I think good players from both AW and WB adapt well to Aces High after a breaking in period *regardless* of their fighting style.  That is, those who excelled in AW or WB at BnZ begin doing so in AH, and those who excelled in turnfighting in AW or WB do so in AH.  It's also silly to suggest that WB players don't dive into furballs with reckless abandon; I went to the WB Con this year and saw plenty of that.

Rarely do I find HOs difficult to avoid except when right on the deck where you can only achieve horizontal rather than vertical separation.  I'm sorry that you feel you need an altitude advantage to negate this form of attack, or that turnfighting somehow inevitably leads to HOs.  In my experience with Aces High, neither is true.

Ultimately, how you fly and die is up to you.  Do what makes it fun for you.

-- Todd/DMF

[eye]

Its been my experence with a few of the realy good aw guys that tried this game that they have a hard time with ho's.
In fact i think it was the change it turnfights tactics and not the money issue that made them leave.
They found it hard to adapt.
I myself took 2 months to adapt to it.
I stand by what i said about wb and aw guys.
Today many have improved to the point that they can hold there own.Some are excelling.
Some cant and many have tried it and left AH.
I also find it easy to avoid low ho sits with a little speed and a roll. Its not hard but its better to apear on a guys 6 then use the turnfighting skills aw guys have to out acm a guy.

As far as how to consider at what point you are good?  Thats entirely up to yourself.
If you a k/d guy 1to1 k/d might be very bad. A dogfighter might think thats great or not care at all. You yourself make up your own standards.
In my book 1 to 1 k/d is the point where a guy is good.
The thing is is that stats on the killboard dont tell you the fun factor.Whatever your skill level or style thats what counts the fun factor.

Dmf/todd is dead+ from aw3?
Sry i seem to have hijacked this post i bit i wont reply.