Rolling, turning, reversing in the vertical

[LoneStarBuckeye]

I am new to AH and flight sims in general.  I am trying to learn to E fight in the vertical, because I think that visualizing the fight in 3-dimensions is interesting.  As you would expect, I routinely get smacked in the main arena, getting only about one kill for every five times I get shot down.

Part of the problem is that my SA is generally poor (I am working on using the fixed views rather than padlock), but another problem is that I have not mastered efficient performance of the various vertical maneuvers.

I read with great interest Lephturn's post in another thread about rolling in the vertical in order to use the vertical dimension to "out-turn" a better-turning fighter.  I have been able to exploit that concept several times to good effect, but the problem I generally have is transitioning from a nearly vertical nose-up profile to a nearly vertical nose-down profile.  

If I find myself closing with a bogey at a high angle off but with an E advantage, I usually try one of two things, depending on how bad the angle-off/aspect situation is.  If it is not too bad, I will probably try some sort of high yo-yo derivative.  If it is more severe, I will try to go vertical, get the nose pointing down, and, once heading down, roll to the bogey's vector.  Typically, I am in a plane that cannot turn with the bogey in the horizontal (e.g., me in an F4U or 109g10 vs. a Japanese fighter or a Spit).

I've watched flight films of high yo-yos and vertical reversals (e.g., hammerheads) in which the turn appears very crisp, almost as if the plan pivots about its yaw axis.  I think that the rudder must be used to make such turns, but I can never get it right.  I usually end up hanging on the verge of stalling and getting shot down (particularly when attempting something like a hammerhead).  If I try to reverse by going straight over the top, I routinely get caught from below, because I cannot get the nose over the top quickly enough.

I would really appreciate any suggestions or advice, particularly on how to most effecitvely maneuver an energy fighter to exploit the rolling-in-the-vertical concept.  I'm sorry if I appear daft, but I need fairly specific direction!  Thanks for reading.

[Urchin]

I think it is almost impossible to do a very 'crisp' hammerhead in Aces High.  At least, if it is possible, I can't do it.

What you need to do instead is actually 'flop' the plane back over onto its back, so that you can be headed back down the right way once the bandit runs out of speed and stalls.  It takes a lot of practice to get a feel for when you should start coming back down, but if you can see the enemy plane's nose start to wiggle, you know they are about to stall and you need to stop climbing so you can get them while they are hanging there.  In Aces High, this is known as a "rope-a-dope", cute, huh?    .  

In a 109G10 at least, if you have your pick between trying to turn in lag pursuit, and just going straight vertical- go vertical.  That way, you can keep an eye on what the enemy plane is doing, and you can easily point your plane in the right direction once you come down off your climb.  You CAN turn with several planes (as a general rule, I don't try to turn with N1K2's, Spits, or Zeros, but most anything else is fair game)as long as you don't turn so much that you lose your initial advantage.  If you are having trouble with snapshots, I recommend loading the gondolas on the plane, and going with the 20mm nose cannon.  That will give you a lot more ammo to play with, and the gondolas only marginally effect the turn and roll rate (the climb rate is affected as well, but it is outstanding even with gondolas).

In general, you don't want to 'saddle up' on someone unless you are absolutely, positively sure that none of his friends are around to jump in once you get low and slow.  It is better to stay high, take snapshots when you get them, and in general wear down your opponent.

If you want to fly a 109 that performs similar to the G10 (it is slower), try out the G2 with gondolas.  It can't turn with N1K2's or Zekes or Spits, but it turns a damn sight better than the G10 does.

And I just realized I answered pretty much none of your questions :-).

As far as 'rolling in the vertical' goes, picture this.  You come down on a Spit's 6, (both heading 000), and you are about 500 yards away when he breaks hard left and settles into a heading of 270.  Since there is no way you are going to turn to 270 behind him, you pull up on the stick until you are going just about straight up, then you roll to the left (or right, whichever floats your boat), until a line drawn from your butt to the top of your head is pointed at 270.  You then pull back on the stick again, and you will be behind the spit again, above him again, but inverted.  Just roll 180 degrees to get the top of your head pointed back at the sky, and you will be in exactly the same position you were to begin with.  You will probably have lost some altitude and speed (i.e. energy), but the Spitfire lost altitude and speed (i.e. energy) as well.  So you still have an overall E advantage.

[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[Tac]

Your best bet in the hammerheads is to pull nose straight up and TRIM the plane there. If the enemy behind you starts to shoot at you (and you inside d800 or less) then a very soft bank to either side with a tad of rudder will let you dodge while still going up.

But always watch the guy behind you. If you flip the plane before the guy behind you does, he'll get a great shot at ya. I usually wait for the con to either STOP shooting at me on the way up (which usually means his plane is about to stall on him and shooting aint a priority for him at that time) or until I see the guy's tail begin to twitch (means hes either stalling or ruddering to prevent stall + level out). At that point I flip the plane. I cut engine and flip the plane and go full power after that, many flips while on full power end up in stalls during or after the flip. And its not nice to have h-headed the guy only to have your butt stall on ya on the way down to shoot the con.

[LoneStarBuckeye]

Thanks for the prompt replies and the excellent information.  

Urchin:  I will put your suggestions regarding the 109s to use.  Do you think that is a good choice for a plane to learn to E fight in or is there a better choice for a rank novice?  I do find that my survival rate is better in the g10 than in most planes, because its amazing climbing ability sometimes allows me to escape if I get in over my head (me against one enemy is tough enough, 1-on-3 is hopeless).

I guess what I am left wondering about is "flopping" the plane over one its back.  What is the best way to do this?  Once I'm vertical (or nearly so) and have rolled to my target's vector, should I immediately pull or should I allow the plane to slow first (and, if I should let the plane slow, how slow should I let it get?  Corner velocity?  Slower?)?  Once I start to pull, should I pull max gs (as limited by stall or blackout) or should I limit the gs in order to preserve E?  I suppose it depends on whether I want to get the nose pointed down as fast as possible, but it seems that I usually want to get the noise pointed down ASAP.

Tac: Once you chop the throttle to instigate the hammerhead, how do you "flip" the plane?  Do you just use full rudder, or do you also use some aileron to counteract the roll that the rudder induces?  Is the goal to get the plane to pivot about its yaw axis, or is some pivot about the roll axis ok?  

Thanks again for your help.  I really appreciate it.

[ 09-30-2001: Message edited by: LoneStarBuckeye ]

[Urchin]

I think the 109G10 is a wonderful plane to learn how to E-fight in, even for a "rank newbie".  I started out flying the 109G10, and I honestly do think I'm a better 'pilot' because of it.  Actually, the G10 is probably the best 109 to learn to fight in, because you CAN get away from most planes if you get in over your head.  As far as "flopping" the plane goes- generally, I attempt to get as near pure vertical as I can when attempting to rope-a-dope someone.  This way, pretty much no matter how you move the stick around, you will end up pointing straight back down when you get done turning around.  As far as when to flop over the top, that is more of a "feel" thing, you will get the hang of it the more you fly.  Unlike Tac, I generally start my "flop" while the enemy plane is still heading up at me, because it does two things.  1. It entices them to keep trying to come at me, in the hopes that they'll get a shot (which generally leads to a much worse stall than had they just realized they weren't going to get me and let the plane stall so they could dive to pick up speed), and 2. It allows me to catch them while they are stalling, giving me a bigger target and one that really has no control over itself.  Even if their nose is pointed in your direction, it will be pure dumb luck on their part if they manage to hit you.  It really is just something that you get a feel for after you play with it enough.

It is OK if your "flop" is not perfectly about the yaw axis, you can roll some to.  It really doesn't matter because ideally your target will be almost directly below you, and your planes orientation to the target doesn't matter much as long as you have your nose pointed at him.  Now, that is ONLY for a rope-a-dope.  

If your target does NOT attempt to follow you up, it is really up to you as to when to turn around.  I try not to let the target get farther than d1.5 away, because if he gets farther away he'll be able to build up some speed and or altitude to use against you when you come back down to attack him again.  If there is more than one bandit in the area I'll generally try to get as high as I can so I can assess the situation before I go back down, if there is only one enemy I'll usually not go as high, and I'll usually attempt to "saddle up" on the second pass (not break off and go up again, but get in a position on his 6 and stay there).  Generally I'll cut the throttle back some in this situation to avoid overshooting- but if you think you are going to overshoot anyway firewall the throttle and make a GENTLE pullup (not more than 2G or so to preserve E), extend away to d2.0 or so and turn around.

[Tac]

cutting the engine and the way to flip the plane is very dependant on what fighter you in.

I usually fly P-38, cutting engine before flipping it (aka, 1 flap and pull up on stick) allows me to flip faster without having the engines pushing me on the horizontal (and I think with engines on it takes longer.. and you DO want to flip ASAP).

The F4U is one plane id never dream of either looping or h-heading with engine at full power over the top of the manouver.. very nasty spin if the plane tumbles over.

109g10 same as f4u but not so serious, you can flip the g10 with little worry at full power.

Other planes you just pull up on stick and use rudder a bit to prevent the roll-spin tendency caused by torque.

[LoneStarBuckeye]

Thanks again, fellas.  That's a great help!

[Vulcan]

Best way to learn is to ask one of the above to let him let you join their plane in combat. You can join as an 'observer' and watch what they do.

One of the easiest planes to learn vertical reversals in would be the tiffie, simply because its so stable in the vertical.  It also rolls very sluggishly so it good for newbies to learn on (ie it doesn't mind ham-fisted pilots on the controls).

I use the 'rope-a-dope' combined with a vertical reverse quite a lot. 80% of the vertical reverse or hammerhead is judging the other guys energy state.

The pure hammerhead (ie rudder) is purely for crowd displays. The practical move is to use the elevator. IE, go vertical, when ur ready cut the throttle a little and haul back to flop the plane over on its back. Simple, fast, has you coming straight down without any fiddely rudder/roll messing around.

But you must judge the other guys E right. Underestimate it and he'll zoom up and kill you, overestimate it and he'll depart before you get a shot in.