No (more) guns please - we're British

[SC-Sp00k]

February, 2000
Sharp Drop in Gun Crime Follows Tough Australian Firearm Laws

Latest official data from Australia shows a marked reduction in gun-related crime and injury following recent restrictions on the private ownership of firearms.

Twelve days after 35 people were shot dead by a single gunman in Tasmania, Australia's state and federal governments agreed to enact wide-ranging new gun control laws to curb firearm-related death and injury. Between July 1996 and August 1998, the new restrictions were brought into force. Since that time, key indicators for gun-related death and crime have shown encouraging results.

Firearm-Related Homicide

"There was a decrease of almost 30% in the number of homicides by firearms from 1997 to 1998."

-- Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, Oct 1999

This report shows that as gun ownership has been progressively restricted since 1915, Australia's firearm homicide rate per 100,000 population has declined to almost half its 85-year average.

Homicide by Any Method

The overall rate of homicide in Australia has also dropped to its lowest point since 1989 (National Homicide Monitoring Program, 1997-98 data). It remains one-fourth the homicide rate in the USA.

The Institute of Criminology report Australian Crime - Facts and Figures 1999 includes 1998 homicide data showing "a 9% decrease from the rate in 1997." This is the period in which most of the country's new gun laws came into force.

Gun-Related Death by Any Cause

The Australian Bureau of Statistics counts all injury deaths, whether or not they are crime-related. The most recently available ABS figures show a total of 437 firearm-related deaths (homicide, suicide and unintentional) for 1997. This is the lowest number for 18 years.

The Australian rate of gun death per 100,000 population remains one-fifth that of the United States.

"We have observed a decline in firearm-related death rates (essentially in firearm-related suicides) in most jurisdictions in Australia. We have also seen a declining trend in the percentage of robberies involving the use of firearms in Australia."

-- Mouzos, J. Firearm-related Violence: The Impact of the Nationwide Agreement on Firearms. Trends & Issues in Crime & Criminal Justice No. 116. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, May 1999; 6

Assault and Robbery

Those who claim that Australia suffered a "crime wave" as a result of new gun laws often cite as evidence unrelated figures for common assault or sexual assault (no weapon) and armed robbery (any weapon). In fact less than one in five Australian armed robberies involve a firearm.

"Although armed robberies increased by nearly 20%, the number of armed robberies involving a firearm decreased to a six-year low."

-- Recorded Crime, Australia, 1998. Australian Bureau of Statistics, Jun 1999

Firearm-Related Crime in Tasmania

"A declining firearm suicide rate, a declining firearm assault rate, a stable firearm robbery rate with a declining proportion of robberies committed with a firearm and a declining proportion of damage to property offences committed with a firearm suggest that firearm regulation has been successful in Tasmania."

-- Warner, Prof K. Firearm Deaths and Firearm Crime After Gun Licensing in Tasmania. Australian Institute of Criminology, 3rd National Outlook Symposium on Crime in Australia. Canberra, 22-23 Mar 1999.

Curbing Gun Proliferation in Australia

In the 1996-97 Australian gun buy-back, two-thirds of a million semi-automatic and pump-action rifles and shotguns were sold to the government at market value. Thousands more gun owners volunteered their firearms for free, and nearly 700,000 guns were destroyed.

By destroying one-seventh of its estimated stock of firearms (the equivalent figure in the USA would be 30 million), Australia has significantly altered the composition of its civilian arsenal.

In addition, all remaining guns must be individually registered to their licensed owners, private firearm sales are no longer permitted and each gun purchase through a licensed arms dealer is scrutinised by police to establish a "genuine reason" for ownership. Possession of guns for self-defence is specifically prohibited, and very few civilians are permitted to own a handgun. All the nation's governments, police forces and police unions support the current gun laws.

Other Countries

Similar reductions in gun death and injury have been noted in several countries whose gun controls have been recently tightened.

In Canada, where new gun laws were introduced in 1991 and 1995, the number of gun deaths has reached a 30-year low.

Two years ago in the United Kingdom, civilian handguns were banned, bought back from their owners and destroyed. In the year following the law change, Scotland recorded a 17% drop in all firearm-related offences. The British Home Office reports that in the nine months following the handgun ban, firearm-related offences in England and Wales dropped by 13%.

A British citizen is still 50 times less likely to be a victim of gun homicide than an American.[/b]

US GUNS AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE

Guns and domestic violence make a deadly combination. Over half of family murders are caused by firearms.[1] Firearms assaults have been found to be 12 times as likely to result in death as non-firearms assaults.

Women as Victims in Firearms Homicides

In 2000, firearms were responsible for the deaths of 1120 white women, 615 African-American women, 220 Hispanic women and 104 others.

Most women are killed by their intimate partners and over two-thirds are killed by guns.

In 2000, 735 women were killed by intimates using guns compared to 226 men.

From 1990 to 2000, over 67 percent of spouse and ex-spouse victims were killed by guns, while 57 percent of girlfriends and 47 percent of boyfriends were killed by guns.

African-American and Hispanic females, especially young women, remain at high risk.

In 2000, among young women age 15 to 24, 191 African-Americans and 112 Hispanics were killed by firearms.

The African-American rate was 5 times and the Hispanic rate 2 times the rate of white young women.

Guns in the Home are Risk Factors for Domestic Violence

In 1997, the presence of a gun in the home made it 3.4 times more likely a woman would become a homicide victim and 7.2 times as likely she would be a victim of homicide by a spouse, intimate or close relative.

Children are also seriously affected by gun violence in the home. Children who witness the use or threat of a firearm exhibit greater behavioral problems than those who do not.

ECONOMIC COSTS OF GUN VIOLENCE

Medical costs of gun violence put a terrible burden on health service providers and governments. When indirect costs of gun violence - loss of productivity, mental health treatment and rehabilitation, legal and judicial costs - are figured in, gun violence costs the US over $100 billion annually.

Medical Costs
In a recent study, the average costs for treating gunshot wounds were:

- $22,400 each for unintentional shootings
- $18,400 each for gun-assault injuries
- $ 5,400 each for suicides.

Over the course of these victims' lives, medical treatment will amount to $1.9 billion.

Other Indirect Costs
Along with direct medical costs, gun violence involves loss of productivity, mental health care, emergency transport, and insurance administration. A 1997 study estimated direct and indirect medical costs at:


- $2.8 million per firearms fatality
- $249,000 per hospitalization for gunshot wounds
- $ 73,000 per emergency room visit and release for gunshot wounds.

With the cost of health skyrocketing, these costs are far higher today.

The Los Angeles Times found in a 1994 shooting of a teenage victim who survived as a paraplegic that medical care, disability payments, rehabilitation, police and trial costs amounted to $1,091,768. The Washington Post  and U.S. News and World Report have both found total costs in similar cases to exceed $1 million.

The Annual Bill To The Nation Annual costs of gun violence in the US have been estimated at between $100 billion and $126 billion.

Costs only for young people under the age of 24 have reached $41 billion.

Who Pays?
Most victims of gun violence are uninsured and the public pays!

- Of $4 billion in medical costs in 1995, the public paid about 85 percent.
- Of victims hospitalized for gunshot wounds in California in 1996, 81 percent were uninsured

FIREARMS AND SUICIDE

Overview

In 2001, suicide by all means took the lives of 30,622 people in the United States: Of this number, 55% (16,869) were completed using a firearm.
In 2001, gun-related completed suicides accounted for 16,869 (57%) of all gun related deaths in the U. S.: that's 46 lives every day that are lost to gun violence.
In 2001, was the third leading cause of death for ages 15-23 and 25-34, accounting for 54% and 51% respectively, for completed suicides using firearms.
A gun in the home is 11 times more likely to be used in an attempted suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense.
 
Children and Teens (Ages 19 and under)

In the United States, we loose 928 children and teenagers every year to completed firearm-related suicides. This accounts for more than two young lives lost per day.
Of the total 1,890 completed suicides in 2001 for ages 19 and under, 49% were firearm-related.
Guns are the method used in 88% of male teen suicides and 12% of female teen suicides.
Senior Citizens

Of the total 5,393 completed senior citizen (ages 65 and older) suicide deaths in 2001, 73% were firearm-related.
Of all senior citizen firearm-related suicides in 2001, males 65 and over comprise 79%.

[SC-Sp00k]

In 2001, gun-related completed suicides in this country took the lives of:

14,454 =
 Males (87%)
 
2,132 =
 Females (12%)
 
15,174 =
 White (91%)
 
1,090 =
 African-American (6.6%)
 
813 =
 Hispanic/Latino (5%)
 
133 =
 Native American/Alaska Native (.8%)
 
189 =
 Asian/Pacific Islander (1.1%)
 
322 =
 Other (1.9%)

Guns in the United States - Easy Access to Deadly Weapons

There are approximately 192 million privately owned firearms in the U.S. - 65 million of which are handguns.

Currently, an estimated 39% of households have a gun, while 24% have a handgun.

In 1998 alone, licensed firearms dealers sold an estimated 4.4 million guns, 1.7 million of which were handguns.[3] Additionally, it is estimated that 1 to 3 million guns change hands in the secondary market each year, and many of these sales are not regulated.

Gun Deaths and Injury - The United States Leads the World in Firearm Violence

In 1998, 30,708 people in the United States died from firearm-related deaths - 12,102 (39%) of those were murdered; 17,424 (57%) were suicides; 866 (3%) were accidents; and in 316 (1%) the intent was unknown.  In comparison, 33,651 Americans were killed in the Korean War and 58,193 Americans were killed in the Vietnam War.

For every firearm fatality in the United States, there are two non-fatal firearm injuries.

In 1996, handguns were used to murder 2 people in New Zealand, 15 in Japan, 30 in Great Britain, 106 in Canada and 9,390 in the United States.

In 1999, there were only 154 justifiable homicides by private citizens in the United States.

Gun Violence - Young Lives Cut Short

In 1998, more than 10 children and teenagers, ages 19 and under, were killed with guns everyday.

In 1998, gunshot wounds were the second leading cause of injury death for men and women 10-24 years of age - second only to motor vehicle crashes.

In 1998, firearm homicide was the leading cause of death for black males ages 15-34.

From 1993 through 1997, an average of 1,409 children and teenagers took their own lives with guns each year.

Each year during 1993 through 1997, an average of 1,621 murderers who had not reached their 18th birthdays took someone's life with a gun.

Guns in the Home - A Greater Risk to Family and Friends

For every time a gun is used in a home in a legally-justifiable shooting [note that every self-defense is legally justifiable] there are 22 criminal, unintentional, and suicide-related shootings.

The presence of a gun in the home triples the risk of homicide in the home.

The presence of a gun in the home increases the risk of suicide fivefold.

The Economic Costs of Gun Violence - All Americans Pay a High Price

A study of all direct and indirect costs of gun violence including medical, lost wages, and security costs estimates that gun violence costs the nation $100 billion a year.

The average total cost of one gun crime can be as high as $1.79 million, including medical treatment and the prosecution and imprisonment of the shooter.

At least 80 percent of the economic costs of treating firearm injuries are paid for by taxpayer dollars.

Theres some stats back at ya.

[Toad]

Yeah, old stats.

The charts I posted are from the Australian Institute of Crimnology, dated 2003.

They show numbers a bit more recent then yours I believe.

See the sharp upward spike in Aussie homicides in 2001/2002? Your stats refrence 1997/1998 almost exclusively. In other words, it's getting worse for you Aussies, just like the Brits.

Same with assaults and robberies.

Next time you come "back at ya", you might want the recent stats.

[SC-Sp00k]

My stats cover a larger area than just 1 year.
Further more they are also closer to the time gun control was initiated, giving a more accurate presentation over a number of years from the direct effect.  Anyone can have a bad year.
Put 2003 down to socio economics, increased drug trade from the Asian Triangle, increased mental health issues or whatever floats your boat.

[NUKE]

Spook, what about looking into banning alcohol, since banning guns was so effective in elimating so many tragic deaths?

I know you said it's apples and oranges, but it's not. The point being that banning  alcohol, like guns, should be considered, since alcohol caused so many deaths and homicides.....many more than guns have.


Why no ban on alcohol?

[SC-Sp00k]

I dont know Nuke. I do know that currently I am petitioning to have sex banned to stop unwanted pregnancies.  Im sure to get it through Parliament. I just need a few signatures.  Will you help?

[NUKE]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
I dont know Nuke. I do know that currently I am petitioning to have sex banned to stop unwanted pregnancies.  Im sure to get it through Parliament. I just need a few signatures.  Will you help?

In other words, you can't answer.

[NUKE]

Hey, if alcohol is okay, why is cocaine taboo?

Why are drugs so available? I thought they were not legal?

[NUKE]

I'm glad we have real cops in America.

[SC-Sp00k]

Im glad for you to. You need them more than we do.

[-tronski-]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
Im glad for you to. You need them more than we do.

Why do you even bother mate?

 Tronsky

[bounder]

Well, having read through the whole thread, yeah, it was a slow morning, I could only find this

Originally posted by Momus--
Jesus, does this argument ever go away?

1. There are so many guns in circulation in the USA and ownership is so culturally engrained that gun-control for the purpose of reducing gun-related deaths would be a pointless measure. Gun ownership for self-defense thus becomes a logical consequence.

2. In the case of the UK, there are are still relatively few guns in circulation and indeed this was also the case prior to the handgun ban. Controls restrict the supply and keep black market prices relatively high.

3. Blanket comparisons between the two cases are basically nonsensical. The US is basically screwed when it comes to firearms in the hands of criminals, so arming the general populace makes some sense from this perspective. The UK however is by and large a lot less screwed, so the mothod of containment for the problem, i.e. reducing the supply, makes a lot more sense.

4.The two main protagonists in this ongoing discussion are either trolling or idiots for not getting point 3.

Thank you.

Was the most sensible thing I could find, and yet went largely uncommented.

I can't believe that this is still top of the O'club today, as it was last time I looked in here , which was months, if not years, ago.

Talk about flogging the greasy marks left by long decomposed horses.

And beetle - quit blaming bliar for everything - the man is a US glove puppet, no better reason than that to oust the f*cker. WMD my ass.

[beet1e]

Mr. Toad said "I note that you don't challenge the stupidity of the ban."   Why should I? It made bugger all difference to me personally. Let us not forget that you did not challenge the "stupidity" of banning head shops in your country in 1981, despite the fact that the ban probably made bugger all difference to US drug usage. I don't suppose for one moment you ever made a purchase at a head shop - ah, that would explain it. And I never bought anything at a gun shop. There you have it!

I don't call gun control in Britain a "failed experiment". Just read Nashwan's remark in my sig. No further comment required.

Bounder - yes, Momus came up with an excellent reply one time. He said

Lazs, I see you're still asserting that the there's a causal link between a crime rate that was already going up prior to the hand-gun ban and the '96 hand-gun ban itself, despite no evidence to back this up.

The argument might fit the US model but it doesn't hold for the UK, unless you're seriously arguing that a few thousand pistol enthusiasts with their weapons either stored in guns clubs or at home in a locked safe were the only thing holding back the crime wave you seem to believe has swamped us in the years since the ban.

But you're wrong. It's Blair's fault. I blame him for everything.

[Toad]

Originally posted by SC-Sp00k
My stats cover a larger area than just 1 year.
Further more they are also closer to the time gun control was initiated, giving a more accurate presentation over a number of years from the direct effect.  Anyone can have a bad year.
Put 2003 down to socio economics, increased drug trade from the Asian Triangle, increased mental health issues or whatever floats your boat.

The graph covers the pre-ban and post-ban years up to the most current collected data.

What it shows is that post-ban there was a very slight drop in homicides for 3~4 years with a sharp increase back to essentially pre-ban levels.

In short, it shows your ban did nothing... just like the Brit ban.

Let's just keep watching. You're happy with your system since the elite like yourself are not affected and the great unwashed worthless mass of your fellow countrymen have been put in their place.

I'm happy with our system.

Good overall situation.

Beet.... so as long as a stupid, pointless law doesn't affect you personally, you have no problem with it, right?

Jeez, there's an attitude we've seen before. Martin Niemöller springs to mind.

[lazs2]

spook... whats the matter the data is right in front of you... your ban in australia made things worse.   Your homicides are back up as toad shows.. as are about all other crime... it is also trending upward not downward.

I don't know where you get your impressions of what I do or don't do (certainly not from anything I have written)  but I have never claimed to train police or anyone or to run any kind of training (it appears that you still have no idea what I do).... I am certain that I know a lot more  American cops than you do... I am also certain that maverick knows a lot more American cops than you do.   Every survey done amoung rank and file police shows that what maverick and I say about how these cops feel is correct and that you are in la la land.   Cops support the right of cityizens to be armed and to have concealled carry.

 I have never claimed to be anything but a hobbiest and lifelong gun owner that happens to work on land that is used for police training.   I also know a few guys from frontsight and heard their views.   Gun owners here are a community and very friendly with each other.   you probly wouldn't understand.

Yes... we have 9-10,000 gun homicides a year here.   We would have those homicides regardless.   At least with guns tho... we have less crime.   if we are preventing 20,000 murders a year by exercising our rights then I guess it is a good thing.   FBI stats show that millions of crimes are prevented every year with firearms.   Surveys in prisons show that criminals are more afraid of armed citizens than of cops.

now you are including suicides as being the fault of guns...  

you show "children" killed at 928.   most of these are 15-17 and have criminal records.  

What is your source for the American data?  The medical data and such sounds suspiciously like the debunked handgun control incorporated's hysterical and false data (right up your alley).  even if there are costs involved... so what?   freedom and saving lives shouldn't have a dollar sign attached.  any monetary cost is worth it.   Freedom from petty little tyrants like yourself and criminals is worth the cost in lives and in a real sense... undoutably saves lives.

So far... every country that tries to control homicides and crime by taking away law abiding citizens rights to own and bear arms simply makes things worse.  

But... like I said... it is a fundamental difference of opinion... I don't think the government has the right to decide how I defend myself and family agianst those who would do us harm...  

lazs