Author Topic: Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.  (Read 1232 times)

Offline Thrawn

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Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« on: October 19, 2004, 04:14:29 PM »
Bearish on Uncle Sam?
As Foreign Investment Shows Decline, Economists Keep Watch
By Jonathan Weisman and Ben White
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, October 19, 2004; Page E01


NEW YORK -- On Sept. 9, as it must frequently do, the U.S. government turned to Wall Street to raise a little cash, and Paul Calvetti bet that demand for $9 billion worth of long-term Treasury bonds would be "huge."

But at 1 p.m., as the auction opened and the numbers began streaming across his flat-panel screens, the head of Treasury trading at Barclays Capital Inc. slumped in his chair. Foreign investors, who had been voraciously buying Treasury bonds, failed to show up. Bond prices cascaded downward, interest rates rose, and in five minutes, Calvetti, 38, who makes money by bidding on bonds at one price and hoping market demand lets him quickly resell them at a profit, had lost $1.5 million.

"It's amazing," he gasped, after the Treasury Department announced that Wall Street traders, not foreigners, had been left to buy virtually the entire auction. "I don't think I've ever seen this before."

The most recent auction of 10-year Treasury notes may have been a fluke, a momentary downturn in one aspect of the massive world market for U.S. government and private-sector bonds, stocks and other securities -- a market so large and diverse that it has long been the world's safe haven. But a rash of new data, including Treasury Department figures released yesterday showing a net sell-off by foreigners of U.S. bonds in August, has stoked debate over whether overseas investors -- private individuals, institutions and government central banks -- are growing dangerously bearish on the U.S. economy.

It is a portentous issue. Foreign governments and individuals hold about half of the $3.7 trillion in outstanding U.S. Treasury bonds, for example, and the government has been heavily dependent on continued overseas bond purchases to finance the roughly $1 billion a day it has to borrow to pay its bills. Foreign lending and investment are also needed to finance the country's roughly $50 billion monthly trade deficit, while foreign capital has been a key prop to U.S. stock prices.

A turn in overseas attitudes toward the United States could ripple deeply through the economy, depressing the market, raising interest rates and pushing down the value of the dollar.



In August, foreign private investors actually sold $4.4 billion more in Treasury bonds and notes than they bought that month, the Treasury Department said yesterday -- the first time in a year that net foreign purchases were negative. That followed a 20 percent decline in July that shrunk net foreign purchases to $18.3 billion.

Bond purchases by foreign central banks also dropped sharply in July, falling 76 percent, to $4.1 billion. A rebound in August brought them back to $19.1 billion. The recovery was timely: Without it, the dollar may have taken a serious hit, said Ashraf Laidi, chief currency analyst at MG Financial Group in New York, who headlined yesterday's client newsletter, "Foreign Central Banks Save Dollar From Disaster."

Foreign purchases of stocks are off as well, going from net purchases of $9.7 billion in July to a net sell-off of $2.1 billion in August. Over the past 12 months, private foreign investors have purchased a net of $17 billion in U.S. stocks, compared with $30 billion in the 12 months before that.

Measuring the combined purchase of stocks, corporate bonds and government debt, overall capital flows into the United States fell in August for the sixth straight month.

Treasury officials said such data should not be overanalyzed. Net purchases of U.S. government securities may have been low in August, at $14 billion, for example. But foreigners still bought more than $807 billion in Treasury bonds, while selling $793 billion, in a month that is usually a slow one in financial markets, said Treasury spokesman Tony Fratto.

"These movements are taking place in a huge market," he said.

But the downward trend in capital coming to the United States is nevertheless worrying, some economists argue, with particular implications for U.S. government debt.

Foreign central banks and individuals rushed to finance U.S. government budget deficits over the past three years, buying $19.2 billion in Treasury bonds in 2001, $118 billion in 2002, and $279 billion in 2003. Lending from foreign governments in particular exploded last year -- to $109 billion, up from $7.1 billion in 2002.

The fear among economists is that those foreign lenders may grow concerned that their portfolios are too swollen with dollar-denominated assets.

The Chinese -- whose Treasury holdings have tripled since 2000, to $172 billion -- have already begun buying more euro-denominated assets, said Rebecca Patterson, a senior currency strategist at J.P. Morgan Chase & Co.

Earlier this year, both China and India diverted tens of billions of their dollar holdings to domestic projects, with China pumping $45 billion into its banks and India devoting $15 billion to infrastructure projects.

"China and India are no longer committed to open-ended dollar buying," Stephen S. Roach, chief economist at Morgan Stanley, warned clients yesterday. "At the margin this shift is negative for the dollar and for U.S. real interest rates."

As the big players begin to invest dollars domestically, the U.S. government is becoming more dependent on smaller nations, like Singapore and Korea, which may be quicker to sell off Treasurys and could demand higher interest rates, said Sung Won Sohn, chief economic officer at Wells Fargo Bank.

"The U.S. government will always be able to raise money -- well, at least in the foreseeable future," he said. "The question is, what will you have to pay and who will you get it from?"

The U.S. dependence on foreign capital concerns economists on both ends of the political spectrum. In a speech this March, Lawrence H. Summers, a Treasury secretary in the Clinton administration and now the president of Harvard University, warned of "a kind of global balance of financial terror," in which the economic well-being of the United States depends on the actions of foreign governments.

"There is surely something off about the world's greatest power being the world's greatest debtor," he said. "In order to finance prevailing levels of consumption and investment, must the United States be as dependent as it is on the discretionary acts of what are inevitably political entities in other countries?"

Desmond Lachman, an international economist at the American Enterprise Institute, writing for the conservative Web site Tech Central Station, cautioned that foreign central banks "now have considerable ability to disrupt U.S. financial markets by simply deciding to refrain from buying further U.S. government paper."

Patterson said that is not likely, comparing the situation to "a Texas standoff with two cowboys. . . . If Asia stops buying, the market will get wind of it very quickly, and they will rush out the door. And Asia will be hurt very badly."

To John Williamson, a senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics, that is cold comfort. The Chinese and Japanese central banks may maintain their huge reserves for defensive reasons, he said, but a smaller player, like Brazil or Singapore, could try to unload its dollar reserves, triggering a global sell-off. Like a mouse in a circus, even a bit player could cause the elephants to stampede.

"It's absolutely true that it wouldn't be in the interest of the world to do it, but any one country might think, 'I'll beat the crowd and diversify first,' " he warned. "I think that's the more likely scenario."




Not that this should really be news to anyone.  Not that I think that Bush or Kerry would help the situation.  But I bet those wacky libertarians could.

Offline RedTop

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Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2004, 04:26:40 PM »
The average joe in this country could probably care less. Not that this article isnt something that a rich person wouldn't be interested in...But as an Average Joe....Makes me no difference.

I'm trying to find out who Heinz-Kerry's accountant is so that I can pay less in taxes. especially since last year I paid more percentage wise than she did. And , dare I say she made just a TAD BIT MORE than I did.

Sorry friggin loud mouthed wench.
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Offline Thrawn

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Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2004, 04:31:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RedTop
The average joe in this country could probably care less. Not that this article isnt something that a rich person wouldn't be interested in...But as an Average Joe....Makes me no difference.



Geez, they should.  It's going to affect them more than the Bushes and Kerrys of the US.

Offline RedTop

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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2004, 04:33:38 PM »
I could be speaking out of turn. Maybe more would care. :)
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Offline capt. apathy

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Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2004, 04:57:06 PM »
we could be in real trouble if instead of buying new ones (so we can use it to pay the bills and pay off the ones that come due), they instead start cashing them in.  could trash our whole economy (I mean more so than it has been for the last 4 years or so).

Offline RedTop

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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2004, 05:10:57 PM »
I hear this "Trashed Economy" everyday. Yet , I see that it is getting better and yet the Doomsdayers keep saying its so bad.

I over the last 4 years have bought my first home...Got a second new car , and am making more money than I ever have. Thats not to imply in any way that I am even remotley close to being wealthy either. Between my wife and I we make less than a 100k a year. Isnt this the middle class that is doing so bad?

I and my wife have had raises and are doing fine. Our savings is good.....Our jobs are secure. We can go out and have dinner 3 or 4 times a month. We have 2 car payments and a house payment a month. We owe nothing more than that. But , to hear the left we should be doing terrible. We should be losing our butts.

We have insurance...a Home..and a decent life. We feel safe with Bush.

Because the rich can't get alll that much richer , or the Poor don't get to have a bigger welfare check doesn't concern me.

My families saftey and my families well being is my concern and since Bush has been in office , we feel better about it.



All I hearis "The Administration" is at fault. Hmmmm...I thought that THE WHOLE CONGRESS was the administraton. Since we voted em all in. Since they ALL have a say of how money goes.

Bush or Kerry IMHO won't make the differnce in the economy.

Greenspan will

:(
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Offline Ripsnort

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Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2004, 05:17:13 PM »
Well Thrawn, we'll just have to ask for  those BILLIONS in loans be paid in full...NOW.  That should clear up any foreign investment problems. :)

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2004, 05:20:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Well Thrawn, we'll just have to ask for  those BILLIONS in loans be paid in full...NOW.  That should clear up any foreign investment problems. :)


1. Billions loaned to who?

2.  Which is more, billions or trillions?

Offline capt. apathy

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Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2004, 05:40:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RedTop
I hear this "Trashed Economy" everyday. Yet , I see that it is getting better and yet the Doomsdayers keep saying its so bad.

I over the last 4 years have bought my first home...Got a second new car , and am making more money than I ever have. Thats not to imply in any way that I am even remotley close to being wealthy either. Between my wife and I we make less than a 100k a year. Isnt this the middle class that is doing so bad?

I and my wife have had raises and are doing fine. Our savings is good.....Our jobs are secure. We can go out and have dinner 3 or 4 times a month. We have 2 car payments and a house payment a month. We owe nothing more than that. But , to hear the left we should be doing terrible. We should be losing our butts.

We have insurance...a Home..and a decent life. We feel safe with Bush.

Because the rich can't get alll that much richer , or the Poor don't get to have a bigger welfare check doesn't concern me.

My families saftey and my families well being is my concern and since Bush has been in office , we feel better about it.



All I hearis "The Administration" is at fault. Hmmmm...I thought that THE WHOLE CONGRESS was the administraton. Since we voted em all in. Since they ALL have a say of how money goes.

Bush or Kerry IMHO won't make the differnce in the economy.

Greenspan will

:(


loss of 1.6 million private sector jobs

decline in the median family income by $1,535.00 annually.  while prices continued to go up- health care 50%, college tuition up 35%, gas up 30%

increase in health care premiums of $2,630 per family.  
4 million more Americans below the poverty level.
5 million more Americans without health insurance.

those who found new jobs to replace those lost did so at an average of $8-16k per year less than the job they had in 2000.

the economy isn't fine.  it seems fine if you are one of the lucky ones that held your job.  then the lower interest rates make things seem better.

   these are averages, some people are doing better some worse.  if you aren't doing quite as bad as the average $1,535,00 per year less, then your lucky.  but for every dollar you're making above the $1,535,00 less, there's some other guy who's not so lucky- he's down the $1,535,00 plus however much better than the average you're doing.

Offline -MZ-

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Re: Why American's might want to care what foreigners think.
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2004, 05:47:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
Not that I think that Bush or Kerry would help the situation.  .


Kerry would help stop the orgy of Republican pork that is helping to drive our debt.  Bush has never vetoed a spending bill.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2004, 05:51:43 PM »
Perhaps gridlock would work -MZ-, but I have plenty of faith that Kerry and a Republican congress wouls still find a way to spend hundreds of billions over budget.

Offline john9001

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« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2004, 06:20:28 PM »
don't worry people , john heinz-kerry has a "plan", when he is prez he will cut military spending, raise taxes, balance the budget, pay off the national debt. Treasury bonds will so rare they will be sold on e-bay as collectables.

BTW you can not "cash in" treasury notes/bills/bonds, you can wait for them to mature or resell them on the secondary market.

Offline RedTop

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« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2004, 06:32:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by capt. apathy
loss of 1.6 million private sector jobs

decline in the median family income by $1,535.00 annually.  while prices continued to go up- health care 50%, college tuition up 35%, gas up 30%

increase in health care premiums of $2,630 per family.  
4 million more Americans below the poverty level.
5 million more Americans without health insurance.

those who found new jobs to replace those lost did so at an average of $8-16k per year less than the job they had in 2000.

the economy isn't fine.  it seems fine if you are one of the lucky ones that held your job.  then the lower interest rates make things seem better.

   these are averages, some people are doing better some worse.  if you aren't doing quite as bad as the average $1,535,00 per year less, then your lucky.  but for every dollar you're making above the $1,535,00 less, there's some other guy who's not so lucky- he's down the $1,535,00 plus however much better than the average you're doing.


Ok...nice reply...now....

If we lost 1 million jobs directly because of 9-11 doesnt that make that number inflated.

Isn't the insurance companies responsible for higher rates. How is the president responsible for this. Its the lobbyists that cause this in congress...not president Bush or Kerry if Im not mistaken.

Oil prices may be up because of the war..That I'll give you. I honestly think it is bcause the fat cat arabs can. Why? Because the Libs. wont let a tree be cut down to make our own way to get away from oil from the other countries. Bush isn't responsible for that eother IN MY OPINION. They do it...because they are oppritunists and they can.

Law suits over any and everything are what drive health care costs up. Not president Bush or Kerry. Costs of insurance are up...This I know for a fact..but it's do to Lawyers getting richer and people being sue happy. AGAIN MY OPINION.

And the Job wage decrease....Hmmmmm....Heinz Kerry has a ton of jobs out of country. Yet claim that this is a bad thing and costing Americans jobs. Pot and Kettle. Noone I know will pay 59.00 for a toaster made in the USA when they can buy one for 19.99 made in China.

Companies cant afford to insure employees because of the above. IMO.


I work for the government and see Legislative sessions every 18 months. Believe me when I say...You can not imagine what is blamed on the President that he can't control. Same as is blamed on a Govenor.

Do they set an agenda? Yes...But its all comprimise. Kerry will fold in a minute. He can be run over IMO with little or no effort. A strong president will say NO...Thats not what we said we would do...Go back and draft it again. But ultimatley behind closed doors...they all negotiate and give and take...some take more than give.

It is perception. But the man in the Whitehouse catches the grief.

The President can take us to War...kiss and suck up to foreign leaders...try to get us help in certain undertakings...BUT..IMHO when it comes to domestic policies...The president is just a figure head.

Saftey and foreign affairs is what he is all about. IMO:)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2004, 06:35:27 PM by RedTop »
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2004, 07:24:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
1. Billions loaned to who?

2.  Which is more, billions or trillions?


Surely you jest? Or just not as informed as you appear to be?

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Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2004, 07:26:29 PM »
Redtop--

By you own admission you're two cars and a house in debt...that is a LOT of debt if the stuff you bought was anywhere near typical in price.

You say that both you AND your wife are working to maintain your lifestyle.


What exactly is so great about that?

Two spouses working and deep in debt doesn't seem so great to me.  Not when I can remember my mother not having to work at all, ever (the woman never even held a driver's license), and dad having no trouble whatsoever paying off the house (paid it off before they even owned it for 5 years) and buying a nice new car with cash every few years.

And we weren't rich.  Dad worked at US Steel...the sort of job which has given way to minimum-wage Wal-Mart jobs in this "so good" economy we have nowdays.  



J_A_B