Author Topic: Kerry's global test  (Read 1063 times)

Offline eagl

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2004, 03:24:17 PM »
FWIW, I've recently been to Paris and it no longer suprises me why they'd rather surrender than have the city destroyed.  It's beautiful and contains treasures beyond most people's understanding unless the've actually been there.  The Louvre alone...  My god it's priceless.  Just building it nearly bankrupted France more than once.  Think about that, building a palace and museum so grand that BY ITSELF it bankrupted the entire country.  In modern terms, that would be like a 40 trillion dollar museum, paid up front.  Simply amazing, and the entire city is like that, one amazing bit of history after another, lined up farther than you can see.

Paris will probably never fall..  It will be given freely whenever it changes hands unless it falls into the custody of people such as the Taliban freaks who destroy such beauty on the principle that since it's not mentioned in the Koran, it must be eradicated, like the priceless ancient statues and temples destroyed for no reason only a couple of years ago in Afghanistan.  But for the rest of the world, Paris is a treasure that can't be lost.

Anyhow, just some insight into at least the Paris thing.  The French are convinced that French culture will endure no matter who occupies Paris, so long as Paris is not destroyed.  So far, history has proven them right.  Even when the British occupied Paris, the city endured and France survived.
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Offline Thrawn

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Re: Kerry's global test
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2004, 04:30:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Sorry, but I'm not about to trust my nation's security to a man with such a fundamentally flawed belief on the subject.



LOL!

You mean someone like FDR?

Offline JBA

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Re: Re: Kerry's global test
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2004, 08:32:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Horn
Really? It's a shame you would allow op-eds to dictate your opinion.

Here's what he said. Please point out the flaws:

"What is your position on the whole concept of preemptive war?" asked Jim Lehrer, the PBS anchor who moderated the debate.

"The President always has the right, and always has had the right, for [a] preemptive strike," the Massachusetts Senator replied, according to the published transcript. "That was a great doctrine throughout the Cold War. And it was always one of the things we argued about with respect to arms control.

"No President, through all of American history, has ever ceded, and nor would I, the right to pre-empt in any way necessary to protect the United States of America.

"But if and when you do it, Jim, you have to do it in a way that passes the test, that passes the global test where your countrymen, your people, understand fully why you're doing what you're doing, and you can prove to the world that you did it for legitimate reasons."

h



thanks for the post, I had forgotten how much of a F*** up he really was. :aok
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Offline RedTop

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2004, 09:15:54 PM »
I believe the statement that Sabre was referring to was made in 1994. I THINK....But it does still sound like what he said in the debate more or less.

Again to the rest of you guys that seem to have such a dim view of Iraq and the current situation and WHY we went to war......

Kerry was behind it the war at first.

Hind-sight is always 20/20.....and could be called Flip/Flop
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Offline GreenCloud

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2004, 09:24:04 PM »
lolol global warmer

Offline NUKE

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Kerry's global test
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2004, 09:35:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Horn
What SOB said above, and:

I'll type real slow so you understand.

Here's a real world example of "legitimate reasons"-- All the world was with us when we attacked Afghanistan in retribution for 9/11. The USA was as united as I've ever seen it. Everyone was behind Bush-- Democrat and Republican, Green Party and Libertarian alike. One voice. From Europe to the Orient, they were all with us. This is a "legitimate reason."

Bush then decided to attack Iraq--after not finishing the job in Afghanistan nor capturing the main culprit responsible for 9/11. He had to stretch the truth, sell the immediate threat to his country and to the world at large for goals that frankly were thin at best.

Countries turned away from us--allies are now few and if not insignificant, leave to us the lion's share of the burden. Our own country is split in devisiveness, thousands of Americans have been killed and wounded. Iraq a long term drain on our country's resources. And for what? To free Iraqis? To destroy the illusory WMD's? This is NOT a "legitimate reason."

I know you probably can't understand the above, but I had to give it a shot.

I'm with SOB on this one: "...I most certainly wouldn't trade the life of one of my family members for the lives of even a thousand Iraqis."

h

What is fundimentally wrong with your view on the Iraq war is that you tie it to that fact that we have not found WMD.

What people like you will never understand is, at the time, EVERYBODY assumed Iraq had them. Russia, France, the UN...EVERYONE. Russia even passed on intelligence to Bush saying that Iraq was planning attacks against America. The CIA told Bush Iraq has WMD, "it's a slam dunk"

What people like you will never understand is that the President had to act in light of all the signs pointing to Iraq as a threat.

Hey, didn't the same people against the war in Iraq also blame Bush for not stopping 911? People like you would never had stood for a war in Afghanistan to PReVENT 911......you only react AFTER we are attacked it seems.

Bush made the only call he could make.... to make DAMN sure another "911" was not going to come out of Iraq.

You people with your hinde sight just amaze me.

Offline Lizking

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2004, 09:39:38 PM »
S! Eagle, that is correct.  You guys really should lay off France, it is unbecoming.

If Kerry is so enamored of total world-wide and UN support, why did he vote against the Gulf War in 1991?  He is a hard-core, no-war-at-any-cost Liberal, and is not fit to lead our country.


I am not saying that he is not patriotic, or brave, just that it is his core beleif that all disputes can be resolved by discourse.  That is lovely when you are smoking pot in college, but in the real world, you get your bellybutton kicked.

Offline RedTop

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kerry's global test
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2004, 09:44:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
What is fundimentally wrong with your view on the Iraq war is that you tie it to that fact that we have not found WMD.

What people like you will never understand is, at the time, EVERYBODY assumed Iraq had them. Russia, France, the UN...EVERYONE. Russia even passed on intelligence to Bush saying that Iraq was planning attacks against America. The CIA told Bush Iraq has WMD, "it's a slam dunk"

What people like you will never understand is that the President had to act in light of all the signs pointing to Iraq as a threat.

Hey, didn't the same people against the war in Iraq also blame Bush for not stopping 911? People like you would never had stood for a war in Afghanistan to PReVENT 911......you only react AFTER we are attacked it seems.

Bush made the only call he could make.... to make DAMN sure another "911" was not going to come out of Iraq.

You people with your hinde sight just amaze me.




correct NUKE:aok
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Offline Nash

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2004, 09:48:10 PM »
Geeze.... eagl...

It's so rare to read something which is unlike any perspective you've ever read, heard or considered before.

The kind of thing that makes me wonder why I've never heard anything remotely like it.

That was good stuff.

Offline Torque

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2004, 09:55:49 PM »
Ditto...Nash.

Straffo wtf?:p

Offline Staga

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kerry's global test
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2004, 09:56:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE

Bush made the only call he could make.... to make DAMN sure another "911" was not going to come out of Iraq.

You people with your hinde sight just amaze me.


"Hinde sight"...  Okay.
Maybe you should widen yours a bit: 911 happened because lunatics got a bright idea. That same can happen in everywhere; think about Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma City.

Offline NUKE

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kerry's global test
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2004, 10:01:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
"Hinde sight"...  Okay.
Maybe you should widen yours a bit: 911 happened because lunatics got a bright idea. That same can happen in everywhere; think about Timothy McVeigh and Oklahoma City.


So true, and that's why the war on Iraq was justified.

Offline eagl

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2004, 02:36:53 PM »
Nash,

Believe it or not, it was a scottish tour bus driver that got me thinking along those lines.  He is a decent source of information, pointing out this site and that, here's where this happened, that building was built by this or that king, oh yea this is where the british barracks were when they occupied the city, blah blah.  The only time he talked about the city actually getting damaged though was an inadvertant bombing by a lone allied bomber during WWII that hit one or another historic landmark while the Germans occupied Paris.  He talked about how the German General in charge of the Paris occupation refused to follow orders to burn the city to the ground and that General was never allowed back into Germany as he is still considered a traitor, even though there is no question it would have been immoral to level the city.

Sure there was a little good natured ribbing about how Paris is great and it's a shame the French are currently occupying it, but underneath that seemed to be great respect for what has been done in Paris.  One of the newest building complexes in Paris is their new national library.  Their goal and neverending task is to translate every word ever published into French.  The enormous ego necessary to simply assume that documents ought to be archived in French boggles the mind, but that is to some degree the essence of the French national identity.  France endures not only as a nation but as the rightful center of the world's culture.  If you look at France's international policy from that point of view, a lot of what they do makes more sense.  They do not seem to feel the need to "save the world", they aren't currently into nation building, and they're content to keep their cultural influences turned inward because all else is at best a pale imitation of the original French.  They act out of national self interest and if that makes them look greedy, selfish, weak, or whatever, that's sort of ok as long as they survive and France flourishes.

It's nearly the middle point between absolute isolationism and empire, although that's a simplistic description because it's not a 2-dimensional scale of behavior.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline straffo

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Kerry's global test
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2004, 02:52:03 PM »
Very good analysis  Eagl.

Did you visit Versailles yet ?

Offline DieAz

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Re: Re: Global Test
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2004, 03:41:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo

See where some are buried


is there an English version of this website?