Author Topic: ENY, the limiter, and making the game better (Read 624 times)

pellik · « **on:** October 21, 2004, 02:35:05 PM »

First off let me say that I'm strongly in favor of the ENY limiter. I'm not making this post to complain about it in any way. I think attempting to create a fair and balanced main arena is a great goal for HT.

My questions and concerns have more to do with the ENY values of the planes themselves. Namely, what the hell do they represent? There are high ENY planes that can stack up very well with the extremely low ENY rides that get filtered out as the #s balance becomes too tilted toward one side, and there are low ENY planes that get cut right away that are practically useless to begin with. Is the current ENY value just some arbitrary value assigned by Pyro or HT? Or is there some formula I'm unfamilure with that determines these ENY settings?

My idea is to target two specific abilities with ENY value, so that the ENY limiter removes options from the horde, not just variety. The abilities I would like to see ENY based entierly around are max speed and climb rate. This partially fits with the current ENY system, which already reflects this as a result of late war planes being generally faster then early war planes. But there are too many exceptions to this trend for the limiter to really aid in the #s game. Can't fly a 51d or la7? Try a typhoon, 190, or 109G10. 109G10 is out? What about the early 109s, they still climb like a beast. Sure the typhy is slightly slower then the pony, but slight difference don't really matter much to the horde mentality. If every eny point increase lowered the top speed of a country in the main arena, as well as their ability to get to rediculously high altitude, the majority of the big horde would quickly get eaten up by the extremely fast smaller hordes. When flying outnumbered 10 to 1 you could just play E games with your advantaged climb rate, and when things go south you could just fly away with no real danger of being caught. This would suck terribly for the horde, but that's kind of the idea.

The slower speeds would also decrease their ability to roll over a country. The longer climbs to altitude and the longer transit times would neutralize even more of their numbers advantage.

I think the most important part of targeting such an essential aspect of flight like this is that even the newbies would learn how to take advantage of it. Not too many pilots in the MA know what changes to make to their flying style to avoid a typhoon instead of a pony, but even the dumbest pilot will figure out that if your opponent can only go 200mph, and your doing 450, he can't really touch you.

(Poor speed to help the n00bs on the under populated country. Poor climb to help the vets.)

-pellik

MOSQ · « **Reply #1 on:** October 21, 2004, 06:33:08 PM »

Pellik,
Good thread starter.

Instead of using speed and climb as the value, how about JABO/Bombing ability.

The Horde can't roll across the board without ordinance carrying planes.

So perhaps it would eliminate 110's, Mossies, P-51-D, all the P-47s, Tiffy, B-17, B-26 in some order.

It's tough to capture bases with just LA-7s, La-5s, Spit V, C-205, since they carry so few bombs.

pellik · « **Reply #2 on:** October 21, 2004, 07:17:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MOSQ
Pellik,
Good thread starter.

Instead of using speed and climb as the value, how about JABO/Bombing ability.

The Horde can't roll across the board without ordinance carrying planes.

So perhaps it would eliminate 110's, Mossies, P-51-D, all the P-47s, Tiffy, B-17, B-26 in some order.

It's tough to capture bases with just LA-7s, La-5s, Spit V, C-205, since they carry so few bombs.

With towns already being so hard to knock down, I think reducing jabo capabilities would only further encourage the horde. If you require even more planes to take a field, you'll just get more planes in the horde.

-pellik

GreenCloud · « **Reply #3 on:** October 21, 2004, 09:18:17 PM »

scary..you want to restrict certain planes??

You know what they say?

They came for the Jews....but I wasnt one....they came for the muslims...but I wasnt one of them...They came for the Christians..but I wasnt one of them...when they came for rasta's..there was no one to help me

ok..well somthn like tht..lolo

I really would cancel my sub for protest if more planes get "locked up"

Whats wrong with hordes? If you arent fast enuff to chery pick or purse swing..stay on the outside..or go to the DA if you want a 1 vs1...or..join us.. http://www.flightladder.com

seems a horribel thing to do ..is to lock up soem bueatiful prop planes

Love
BiGB
xoxo

Arlo · « **Reply #4 on:** October 21, 2004, 09:45:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GreenCloud
scary..you want to restrict certain planes??

You know what they say?

They came for the Jews....but I wasnt one....they came for the muslims...but I wasnt one of them...They came for the Christians..but I wasnt one of them...when they came for rasta's..there was no one to help me

ok..well somthn like tht..lolo

All i know is I'll have whatever you're smokin'.

pellik · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2004, 10:04:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GreenCloud
scary..you want to restrict certain planes??

You know what they say?

They came for the Jews....but I wasnt one....they came for the muslims...but I wasnt one of them...They came for the Christians..but I wasnt one of them...when they came for rasta's..there was no one to help me

ok..well somthn like tht..lolo

I really would cancel my sub for protest if more planes get "locked up"

Whats wrong with hordes? If you arent fast enuff to chery pick or purse swing..stay on the outside..or go to the DA if you want a 1 vs1...or..join us.. http://www.flightladder.com

seems a horribel thing to do ..is to lock up soem bueatiful prop planes

Love
BiGB
xoxo

I'm not saying restrict more planes- I'm saying do a better job selecting which planes get restricted. I don't have a problem with the hordes, for the most part, but I don't like seeing a country's numbers drop to below 50 at prime time because they are all sick of getting ganged.

-pellik

MOSQ · « **Reply #6 on:** October 22, 2004, 12:21:26 AM »

OK,
With a little further thought>>>

I hate the idea of restricting planes period anyway.

How about restricitng bombs?

At X% 1,000 lb bombs are no longer available.

At Y% 500 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.

At Z% 250 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.

The hordes get bigger and don't go away with the current ENY if the high numbers side thinks a reset is in the making. They will fly anything to win the "war". It happened again tonight, the NITS smelled (and will get) a reset. The ENY was at 30 again, but it made no difference. They want that win.

But if you take away their ordinance, they have a tough time advancing towards a reset. They can up any plane they want and furball away, they just can't pork and capture bases. ( W/O bombs).

Pongo · « **Reply #7 on:** October 22, 2004, 01:10:13 AM »

First things first. The ENY thing is a total failure. After a week or two of success as people swithched arround with the novelty of it. The numbers have firmly settled into the biggest gang bang ever.
alway 2 to 1 for the knights. Often 3 to 1.

Its just silly.
It managed to drive the numbers in the MA even LOWER...lol

Put in a side ballancing log in routine and get it over with. End the years of silly denial.

pellik · « **Reply #8 on:** October 22, 2004, 01:29:30 AM »

Let me recap a little here, since most follow ups have been only on the ENY limiter in general and not my suggestion. The point of my post here is to sugguest a way to make the ENY limiter more effective, not to qualify the success it's had in it's current state.

The idea I'm proposing is to nearly remove the hordes ability to fight a horde fight, which is to straife the enemy like mad with HO attacks because there is no way he can deal with 20 guys coming at him from different directions. When climb rate and top speed are restricted there is increasingly little they can do about fast planes picking them and going for cheap kills. They can still swarm, but the effectiveness of that swarm should be only a fraction of what it is now. If I'm in a la7 and have 1 or 500 early war planes behind me like the hurri or p40 the level of danger I'm in doesn't really change, and I'll probably be able to grab a few kills despite the horde chasing me down. I'm suggesting the ENY limiter be set up so that being fast is a privlige given to the country that doesn't have the #s to help keep things fair.

-pellik

pellik · « **Reply #9 on:** October 22, 2004, 01:34:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MOSQ
OK,
With a little further thought>>>

I hate the idea of restricting planes period anyway.

How about restricitng bombs?

At X% 1,000 lb bombs are no longer available.

At Y% 500 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.

At Z% 250 lb bombs and rockets are no longer available.

The hordes get bigger and don't go away with the current ENY if the high numbers side thinks a reset is in the making. They will fly anything to win the "war". It happened again tonight, the NITS smelled (and will get) a reset. The ENY was at 30 again, but it made no difference. They want that win.

But if you take away their ordinance, they have a tough time advancing towards a reset. They can up any plane they want and furball away, they just can't pork and capture bases. ( W/O bombs).

The current ENY limiter has shown that simply inconveniencing people isn't really going to do much to get them to switch countrys. They would rather go and complain on the forums about how the ENY limiter is unfair than switch to a country that doesn't offer the same horde benefits. Any annoyance, such as limiting ordanence, really isn't going to do anything that the current plane set restrictions doesn't already do. If a real handycap were given, instead of a gentle prod, the safty of the horde wouldn't be so appealing.

-pellik

red420 · « **Reply #10 on:** October 26, 2004, 06:01:49 PM »

I think that pilots not in a squad could be shuffled automatically to different teams once numbers start to get lopsided, starting with lowest rank. That way, if you don't want to get shuffled, you can join a squad, and if you're a loner it shouldn't matter what side you're on, as long as you get to kill. Just a thought

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #11 on:** October 28, 2004, 01:50:10 AM »

You're right, Pellik. It's the people, not the system.

Folks who whined enough to make HT put in ENY didn't want "balance" - balance implies equal chances. They just didn't like someone else having an advantage. They wanted to be the Horde, and now that they are they aren't whining about balance. To Hell with the fact that the MA is probably more imbalanced than before - and that it sucks even worse.

But you're forgetting the prime weapon of the Horde - the NOE bomber formations. Slap an ENY of 5 on ALL bomber formations and the Horde's effectiveness drops by probably a third.

I just hope that when HTC gets 2.1 out they turn their attention to fixing the MA. If the trend of lopsided odds continues, the MA will become a 2-country game on its own. And the forces that caused that will then make it a 1-country game.

SlapShot · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2004, 08:35:23 AM »

Folks who whined enough to make HT put in ENY didn't want "balance" - balance implies equal chances. They just didn't like someone else having an advantage. They wanted to be the Horde, and now that they are they aren't whining about balance.

Why must you persist in painting with a broad brush.

I was a participant in the initial discussions of ENY (as were you) ... I still support the ENY mechanism for balance.

I didn't whine (don't remember anybody whining in that thread)

I didn't want the advantage to switch from one side to another

I don't participate in any form of "Horde"ing

... and from what I see, the numbers, for the most part remain balanced. If not, the ENY kicks in and I am forced to fly a higher ENY plane ... no whining, nashing of teeth, or foot-stomping involved at all.

If you really want a subjective view of what's going on, then I suggest that you do a "tour" and stop looking at everything from the "Rook" point of view. You input, as of late, is very lopsided, and it is you that comes off as "whining".

DoKGonZo · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2004, 11:26:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot

...

If you really want a subjective view of what's going on, then I suggest that you do a "tour" and stop looking at everything from the "Rook" point of view. You input, as of late, is very lopsided, and it is you that comes off as "whining".

Please look at the tense of my statement. It is definately aimed at the whines that led to the implementation of ENY, and their authors, that I am referring to. Not the people who after the hammer was dropped stepped up to discuss how to make it work.

And I don't recall mentioning you or anyone by name, SlapShot.

And, yeah, I'm kind of cranky lately about this. About half the times I want to fly a little it's not worth it because the odds are so completely screwed. Every week the delta on the odds gets worse. And then I look at the BBS and it's silent on the subject of Bish/Knit hordes ... but there are frequent mentions now of Rooks only flying in the stratosphere recently (well, duhhhh). Isn't that conveeenient, as the Church Lady would say.

When ENY came out there was a lot of noise about how "it's no fun to be backed up week after week" by the pro-ENY crowd. Well, obviously 1/4 of the player base now has that week after week after week after week.

Either people want balance or they don't. And the behavior indicates that they don't.

The whole point of my post to pellik was that he didn't factor in the Horde's prime weapon (NOE heavy bombers) to his proposal, and he mustn't assume that everyone wants want he - and you and I, Slapshot - want.

SlapShot · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2004, 01:26:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Please look at the tense of my statement. It is definately aimed at the whines that led to the implementation of ENY, and their authors, that I am referring to. Not the people who after the hammer was dropped stepped up to discuss how to make it work.

And I don't recall mentioning you or anyone by name, SlapShot.

And, yeah, I'm kind of cranky lately about this. About half the times I want to fly a little it's not worth it because the odds are so completely screwed. Every week the delta on the odds gets worse. And then I look at the BBS and it's silent on the subject of Bish/Knit hordes ... but there are frequent mentions now of Rooks only flying in the stratosphere recently (well, duhhhh). Isn't that conveeenient, as the Church Lady would say.

When ENY came out there was a lot of noise about how "it's no fun to be backed up week after week" by the pro-ENY crowd. Well, obviously 1/4 of the player base now has that week after week after week after week.

Either people want balance or they don't. And the behavior indicates that they don't.

The whole point of my post to pellik was that he didn't factor in the Horde's prime weapon (NOE heavy bombers) to his proposal, and he mustn't assume that everyone wants want he - and you and I, Slapshot - want.

I did look at the tense of your statement and thought that you were referring ("Folks who whined enough to make HT put in ENY") to those that participated in the thread that I referenced. Sorry I misinterpreted your intentions.

No you didn't name names but when sweeping statements are made with broad brushes, and I feel that I have been swiped by the brush, wrongly, I feel the need to speak up. Nothing personal.

Dok ... prior to your re-introduction to AH, the drubbing that was being handed out on a daily basis, due to imbalance of numbers, does not even compare to what is seen lately (since the intro of ENY). I kid you not, and I am not embelishing to strengthen my position.

They weren't whines back then, they were more along the lines of "pleas". I don't know why people assume that HT/HTC buckles to "whines". It is my experience that if changes are made, they aren't made on a whim or a concerted "whine". The "whine", in and of itself, may cause HT/HTC to take a look, but I believe change is made when they believe that something is out of wack and not done just to "appease".

If HT/HTC buckled so easy to the volume of "whines", then the La-7 would have been perked a long time ago, killshooter would not be what we see today, the collision model would be different, and dive-bombing buff formations would already be a thing of the past.

If HT/HTC does end the dive-bombing buff formations (your biggest pet-peeve right now) would it be due to the volume of "whines" or would it be due to the fact that something is out of wack and something really needed to be done ? Was it the volume of "whines" that was the impetus for them to look at the problem and fix it, or would they just change it to silence the "whines" ?