FM Differences in the TA vs. the MA/DA?

[Howitzer]

I went to the training arena last night to mess around with the 38 and get a feel for the low speed flap flying.  I had my stall limiter turned on, but whenever I would drop one notch of flaps that plane would become almost uncontrollable.  So I tried with a jug and the same thing happened even at close to 200mph with 2 notches of flaps I kept going into a spin.  So I went to the DA to see if the behavior was the same, and it wasn't, I was able to ride the stall like I thought I should be able to, and my maneuvers worked great.

So my question is, has anyone else seen this?  Does the flight model change in the TA?

[Soulyss]

AFAIK the FM is the same regardless of which arena your in, it's hard coded, there isn't an arena setting that is switchable.  Did you have combat trim on?  I've noticed some really bizare behavior with combat trim on with flaps deployed and at slow speeds before... granted it was in the F6F.  But I wonder if that applies across the board.

[humble]

FM is the same...."combat trim" is the problem.

[Cooley]

The Stall limiter may be turned OFF  in the TA as an arena setting,
and it wouldnt matter if ya had it turned on, on your end

Or the StallimitAOA setting may be set different in the TA

Would be helpfull if the setting is different from the MA. to mention that in the MOTD or to have a .show command or somthing that allows us to view arena settings

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Howitzer
I went to the training arena last night to mess around with the 38 and get a feel for the low speed flap flying.  I had my stall limiter turned on, but whenever I would drop one notch of flaps that plane would become almost uncontrollable.

first Howitzer, are you indeed talking Stall Limiter, or are you talking Combat Trim?

if you have the Stall Limiter on, why? how can you get a feel of riding the edge of the stall with the limiter on?, as for Combat Trim, it will do weird things to your flight chracteristics in certain planes, P38 is 1 prime example.......

ask Ack-Ack or Murdr or any of the other P38 pile-its

[Howitzer]

I had combat trim on, but I mostly fly with it on so I don't think it can be that.

Tequila -  I think we are talking stall limiter now that I think about it.  The reason it was on is because I'm not used to flying the 38 with it off, and I knew if I were to try this I would spend more time in flat spins than actually working on the maneuvers.  But that does seem to be the case anyway.  Like I said, its not just the 38, I had the same behavior in the jug.  

Talking to those guys is a great idea, and I plan to investigate further, but I think that there should be a setting to enable/disable stall limiter in the TA.  If it is indeed for teaching new pilots, the stall limiter is a nice thing to have.  And I checked several times, unchecking it, then rechecking it, and the plane behaved the same both ways.

[Elfie]

I do believe its the combat trim at fault here Howizter. The P-38 can go into a nasty, unrecoverable spin with the combat trim on and flaps deployed when you are trying to ride the edge of the stall. It can also happen in the Hurricane with combat trim on and flaps down. Iirc combat trim doesnt take into account what position your flaps are in.


The same thing could be happening in the P-47.

[Mister Fork]

Combat Trim? You're all wrong.

It has been proven that there is something wonky with the TA that has nothing to do with combat trim, but perhaps with the stall limiter.

If Stall Limiter is OFF in the TA, and you have it ON in your personal setup, you may find that flying in the TA can surprise you if you pull back too hard and exceed your AoA causing a high speed stall.  If you're flying slow, the stall hits real fast, real hard in this same setup.  It doesn't impact all aircraft, but a select birds to exibit this behaviour.

Not sure what it is, but especially flying spin-prone Fw-190's, if you pull back too hard it WILL send the plane into a flip-flop spin.  In the CT/DA/MA this effect is not observed. But the 109 flies as it does in all arenas.


Bottom line, don't stall your plane.

[SlapShot]

Howitzer,

If the TA has too many funky settings, go to the DA and practice there. Find a field that there is no one at and have at it.

Combat Trim and a P-38 do not make a good combination.

Whenever I fly the P-38, especially low and slow (stall fighting conditions), when using flaps, you will also might want to use your elevator trim at times. Using both flaps and trim, this is where the P-38 will shine.

I don't use aileron trim at all ... just elevator trim. In some situations, I can get a good nose up attitude (on a turn) using elevator trim without having to drop flaps and get the nose around quicker or up without bleeding as much speed as I would trying to use flaps.

To much nose-up attitude (with elevators) and flaps can lead to a nasty unrecoverable stall ... which as far as I am concerned should not happen, but it does, and I just deal with it.

[Elfie]

Combat Trim? You're all wrong.

It has been proven that there is something wonky with the TA that has nothing to do with combat trim, but perhaps with the stall limiter.

That may very well be, the problem I listed with combat trim and flaps in the 38 is also valid.

[streetstang]

TA is a waste of time.

DA is where the real learning takes place.

[DipStick]

I can't see why anyone, even a noob would use the stall limiter. It's useless for learning because you're learning wrong and will not give a 'feel' for anything but flying with it on.

As far as combat-trim goes, it does more harm than good in any 2 engine plane. The 38 is hard if not impossible to fly with it on.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by streetstang
TA is a waste of time.

DA is where the real learning takes place.

please do tell! what is so wasted in the TA? come on I need to hear a good one right about now!

if the TA is such a waste, I guess HTC does not need Ghosth, Soda, Ren, Drano, fuzeman, Widewing or myself at all! we all must be a waste too..........

btw one of the first suggestions we make to new flyers in the TA is to turn off Stall Limiter, as for Combat Trim, I fly with it off, I suggest people to try CT both ways and see what they are most comfortable with........certain planes do respond much better with CT off though in my experience.....(I should explain,  certain planes perform better using manual trim vs Combat Trim )

and Mister Fork, I do not see where I am wrong in anything I mentioned earlier.............

[Murdr]

Combat Trim in the P38

[streetstang]

The TA is a good place for freash out of the box newbs to go and figure out the general gist of the game. BCM.

The DA is where you go to for the nitty gritty hard core stuff. Ofcourse you have to go with the right trainer to get to that sort of stuff.

Again, this is my m/o. Probably bullchit to most of you. But thats how it was for me. & still is.