Author Topic: Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?  (Read 1447 times)

Offline MarkVZ

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« on: October 23, 2004, 07:46:05 AM »
I just got a new digital camera (Panasonic FZ-20) and have been trying to learn how to use all of the features.

Anyways, I headed down to a local railroad yard, hoping to get some decent train pics. I stopped my car on the side of a public road on the edge of the railroad's property, and used the roof of my car as a tripod to stablize the camera, since it was getting dark and I needed longer shutter times. Anyways, I shot pictures for a few minutes, and a truck from the railroad facility pulls up and notifies me that the facility was covered by the Homeland Security Act, and that I was not allowed to take pictures of their equipment, which consisted of regular old diesel-electric locomotives. I told the man that I never entered the railroad's property, and explained that I was simply taking photographs. I was told that photography of the site was not allowed, because "I could be a terrorist." He told me that he would be calling the police if I didn't leave.  I was  angry but kept my cool.  I thanked him for the warning, and I left.

How can they prohibit photography from a public road? I never set foot on their property, and I wasn't at all shady about what I was doing. I was out in the open. That just doesn't seem right.

Just for the record, I condier myself to lean conservative, and I'm not trying to start a political flamefest.  I would just appreciate clarification from someone who is more savvy on the HSA than I am.

Offline AKWeav

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2004, 08:50:17 AM »
Take yourself back in time about sixty or so years.  Think maybe someone would have said something about you taking pictures like you did?

Fast forward to Madrid, then fast forward to some nervous middle eastern men taking pictures of the Washington state ferries.

I think the guy should be patted on the back for what he did, even though your intentions were completly innocent.  We are after all, at war.

Offline AKIron

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2004, 08:55:49 AM »
The guy was just being cautious and did the right thing I believe. If you had insisted he may have called the police but I think they would have allowed you to proceed after getting your ID and checking you out. You can bet though that if there were ever any trouble at that yard you would be the first person they'd come looking for.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Sandman

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2004, 10:33:14 AM »
You should have let him call the police. :)


I've been searching through this ridiculous law... it's difficult to find how this applies to what you were doing.

http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/hr_5005_enr.pdf
sand

Offline CHENAULT

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2004, 10:53:13 AM »
I would be willing to bet that if you contact the railroad offices prior to going out and requesting their permission to take your photos, they would probably be glad to ablige you and would welcome the positive consumer interaction.
The way things are today, you just can't afford to not be vigilant. It would take a few extra minutes to ask, but you would reap the dividens in the long run. You'd have the best pics available:D

Offline MarkVZ

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2004, 03:10:33 PM »
I understand their concern and their wanting to know what I was doing on the edge of their property, but to tell me that I am not allowed to take pictures at all?  That seems like a violation of my rights.  

This information, from an attorney, explains that they can not tell me not to take pictures from a public road.    http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm

 Can anyone comment on the legality of this?  

What many of you may not understand, is that railfanning is a big hobby.  There are many Americans who enjoy tracking and photographing trains.  Often, railfans serve to protect the railroads by reporting shifted loads, hot axles, and track problems.

Also, one has to wonder how far this will be taken.  How would you feel if you started taking pictures of warbirds at an airport, and you got harassed for it, and someone insisted that you were a risk to national security?  Or fishing on a reservoir and you happen to take a few pics of a dam, and someone demands your film?  In my limited research I've seen many cases of people being harassed and even detained for taking pictures of federal buildings, which are plainly visible to the public.  New York City has banned photography in the subway system.  A student working on a photography project near Seattle got harassed for taking pictures of a lock and dam.  Where does it end, and at what point will the war on terrorism be "won" to a point that we regain our rights to take pictures of everyday things?

Offline senna

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2004, 04:50:00 PM »
Cant you just go to an airshow and take aircraft pictures like eveyone else.

:D

Offline Gunslinger

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2004, 05:01:13 PM »
now how would you feel about an arab muslim hell bent on blowing up a passenger train or some hazardous cargo in order to kill as many people as possible.  Do want this guy taking pictures and staking out his target?

seriously why can't you just ask for permission?

Offline MarkVZ

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2004, 05:16:10 PM »
What makes you think that they would have given me permission to take pictures of their equipment, when they went out of their way to tell me to leave public land to stop me from taking pictures?  From what I read of the people who talked to me, they wouldn't have allowed me to even with permission.  But I suppose that's just my opinion.

I never said they they were out of line by asking what I was doing there.  That's fine by me.  We were polite with eachother, and I didn't allow things to escalate.  What does bother me, is that I was not allowed to take pictures from a public road.  

Should we need permission to take pictures of trains, airplanes, bridges, airports and the like?  These things are very commonly photographed items.  

Why should I be treated like a terrorist when I'm just a hobbyist out to take a few pictures?  The majority of railfan pictures are taken off of railroad property, and no permission is required, as it shouldn't have been in my case.   I purposelly shot out in the open to dispel any worries that I might be doing something shady.  I wanted to be seen.  I wasn't hiding in a ditch on the side of the tracks, half obscured by leaves.  I was standing next to my white car in the wide open.    

No, I do not wish harm upon anybody, and I would not like to see a terrorist staking out a target on the rails.  However, where do you draw the line on what one can photograph from public property?  There were several houses facing this rail installation, and anyone living there could sit on their porches all day and watch the trains.  However, I got told to leave the side of a public road because I happened to be holding a camera.  

I guess this sort of thing just won't strike home until you are personally harassed for something like this.  I know I didn't think much of the cases I'd heard of until it happened to me.

Offline MarkVZ

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2004, 05:28:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by senna
Cant you just go to an airshow and take aircraft pictures like eveyone else.

:D


Trains are much easier to come by in northeast Mississippi ;)

Offline Gunslinger

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2004, 06:12:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MarkVZ
What makes you think that they would have given me permission to take pictures of their equipment, when they went out of their way to tell me to leave public land to stop me from taking pictures?  From what I read of the people who talked to me, they wouldn't have allowed me to even with permission.  But I suppose that's just my opinion.

I never said they they were out of line by asking what I was doing there.  That's fine by me.  We were polite with eachother, and I didn't allow things to escalate.  What does bother me, is that I was not allowed to take pictures from a public road.  

Should we need permission to take pictures of trains, airplanes, bridges, airports and the like?  These things are very commonly photographed items.  

Why should I be treated like a terrorist when I'm just a hobbyist out to take a few pictures?  The majority of railfan pictures are taken off of railroad property, and no permission is required, as it shouldn't have been in my case.   I purposelly shot out in the open to dispel any worries that I might be doing something shady.  I wanted to be seen.  I wasn't hiding in a ditch on the side of the tracks, half obscured by leaves.  I was standing next to my white car in the wide open.    

No, I do not wish harm upon anybody, and I would not like to see a terrorist staking out a target on the rails.  However, where do you draw the line on what one can photograph from public property?  There were several houses facing this rail installation, and anyone living there could sit on their porches all day and watch the trains.  However, I got told to leave the side of a public road because I happened to be holding a camera.  

I guess this sort of thing just won't strike home until you are personally harassed for something like this.  I know I didn't think much of the cases I'd heard of until it happened to me.


And what will you be saying after a terrorist casing something blows it up and kills a bunch of people and witnesses saw him taking pictures but could do nothing about it because he was on a "public road"?

Sounds to me like these guys did right.  They were professional in what they did.  

You are right though there is a line that will be crossed one day when it comes to sacrificying certain freedoms for security.

Offline MarkVZ

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2004, 06:24:19 PM »
I fear that line has already been crossed.
 
When will the war on terror be won to an acceptable level that I can once again photograph freight trains in sleepy Artesia, MS?  

Should the photographers who post the pictures on airliners.net be considered terrorists as well?  

Also, can anybody tell me specifically what part of the HSA prohibits photography of such places?

Offline Torque

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2004, 06:37:01 PM »
Let them call the Cops, take your pics.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2004, 06:57:24 PM »
You cant blame the Railroad cop, he's doing his job.  All private and contract security forces have received papers from the dept. of homeland defense instructing us what to do to "remain vigilant" even during times of low alert.  It specifically mentions people taking pictures of hotels, public utilities, etc; it tells us to report such incidents not just to the police but to the FBI.  I understand your frustration AND I understand your hobby ( I used to work for Norfolk Southern when I lived in Missouri ).  But you have to understand that in this day and age, security is not just about keeping a secure perimeter, but about avoiding liability.  If that RR cop sees you taking pictures, and doesnt do what he can to make you stop, and then the yard gets hit by any kind of wacko trying to disrupt the trains, the families of anyone hurt would sue them for everything they are worth (and probably win), EVEN IF IT WAS PROVEN you had nothing to do with the terrorist/wacko.  Because you could have.  If they didnt stop you, who else did they let get away with this?  

For hobbyists like you, its going to have to be understood there are some areas that will be off limits, and the switching yards are going to be big ones.  Because they are potential targets.  Taking a picture of a train coming down the tracks is one thing.  Taking a picture of the yard is another.  You have to have permission first to take pictures of their property.  Welcome to a new day.

Offline Gunslinger

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Homeland Security Act prohibits photography... of trains?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2004, 07:00:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MarkVZ
I fear that line has already been crossed.
 
When will the war on terror be won to an acceptable level that I can once again photograph freight trains in sleepy Artesia, MS?  

Should the photographers who post the pictures on airliners.net be considered terrorists as well?  

Also, can anybody tell me specifically what part of the HSA prohibits photography of such places?


When are you gonna wake up and realize that they are trying to protect you and others.

What's so hard about asking for permission?  They've busted all sorts of terrorists taking pics of trains buildings airports bridges ferries and such.  Do you want these guys to complete their missions?