What to do when bounced?

[Soviet]

I seem to not know what to do when I get bounced by a figther with superior turning ability than me (usally La7, Spit IX, N1K2J) diving never works in the long run even when i fly a P-47 or a F6F.  I usally get my arse handed to me unless i can get a few nice HO's in  .

Can anyone please help me in what to do when bounced by a figther, any fighter from above you? This has been giving me a lot of problems.  Thanks.

Oh and P.S. some of you might say "grab more alt" but sometimes no matter where i take off there might be an NME fighter on Patrol that shoots me down.

~Soviet

[Urchin]

Hum.  Generally, if a turn fighter bounces you from above you want to slow them down somehow.  The good news is that since they are flying a turn fighter they will WANT to try to turn with you, thus rather shooting themselves in the foot most of the time.  

The P47 and F6F are both VERY manueverable at high speeds (350+).  At those speeds, you can do a break turn that the Spitfire and N1K cannot match.  I'd then recommend a barrel roll back into the bandit, followed by a dive to get away  .  What you are doing is forcing them to bleed off speed pulling for a shot, and then using your superior acceleration in a dive to get the hell outta Dodge before they can line their guns up on you.  Be aware that both the N1K and Spit have tremendous acceleration in the first few seconds of a dive, so you want to try to get them pointed in a different direction before you start diving away.

If they follow you, you want to level out, then start a gentle climb.  By doing this, you are going from a position in which the enemy holds the energy advantage to a position in which you hold the E advantage.  It can be difficult to turn this E advantage into a positional advantage though, so you want to try to get a couple thousand feet above them, and I'd say at least d2.5 away before you reverse back into them.  From there you want to make low G moves if you don't have a shot, and ALWAYS extend away to a distance of d2.0 or so.

Hope that helps some.

[Spatula]

Being bounced by a superior turning ability plane from a superior E position is a dificult scenario to win. The tactic you use is dependent on your perceived advantages in performance over theirs (assuming different plane types).

Normally a better turner is generally slower in top speed and or has less performance at higher alts. These should be the basis for you to expliot. how?

use your speed advantage to 'tire' the enemy out, make him waste his E by chasing you, then once the E is eqaul, or better still in your advantage, turn the tables into an E fight. This will only work if you are very mindfull of your speed, you must stay very fast or he will serve your bellybutton back to you. Secondly this takes alot of patience - dont let him sucker you in.

secondly altitude can be your friend here too. the P47 shines very brightly at high alts, and not as well down low. So try maintain your alt (not at the cost of effective manuevering speed tho). Above 20k the p47 should be a good match for the la7, and 25K + you will eat it for breakfast. Again lots of speed helps maneuvering up high.

p47 has great guns and is tuff, so if your in a bad position a HO aint always a bad option.

lastly try use their excess speed against them. this entales you allowing them to bounce you from the rear qaurter, and barrel-rolling to force them to overshoot, from there if you havent scrubbed too much speed off, you can either follow them up as they try to escape (only if they have tried and turned hard to stay with you - ie they've lost a good amount of E), or tag em as the go past. Be wary of cannon armed planes with hi ROF - like the hispano, one ping can really ruin your day. This tactic may not work first time, but can work wonders.

Another tip, try to keep in mind where you are in relation to your friends/wingman/bases/acks/carriers etc. try not to stray to far from home, always have a contingency escape plan, where posible.

hope something here helps.

[Rickenbacker]

I'm more or less reiterating what other people said here, but here's what works for me.

First of all make sure the bogey is really after you. Once he commits himself to an attack, turn into him and ideally try to dive under his nose which forces him to push down to hit you, a very hard snapshot at best.

If he zooms back up after attacking you're in trouble, but keep doing the same thing while trying to keep going towards friendly territory and hope he gives up or someone else shows up to engage him.

If he turns with you to try and get a tracking shot he's just blown most of his E advantage, and a zero G diving extension with the occasional jink should take you out of gun range and further pretty quickly.

[DanielMcIntyre]

If an enemy turn fighter dives on me, I get as much level speed as possible, make him get real fast, turn into him if possible, make the closure rate as fast as possible, if he's not too smart he's gonna get a lot more E then me and he's gonna have a hard time hitting and pulling out of the dive.  

If I manage to avoid his initial attack, i use rudder to yaw left and right to throw off aim, go straight up vertical while he's still going down.  If he starts coming back up and I think he's going to outzoom, I flip over and dive down aiming for his wing, never the cockpit. IMO its much more difficult to aim pointing vertically up, then it is pointing vertically down so I have the advantage.  

If the guys smart thou, he'll control his closure rate and you just gotta run like hell.

I'm not sure this is correct procedure, but it usually works well for me in Tiffie.

 

[Ghosth]

All of the above.

When I'm bounced from above typicly my first move will be a split S, timed just before he opens fire, say around 800 to 1k. So now he's pointed west, I'm pointed east. So I'll run level and unless he has a LOT of alt advantage he won't catch me.

If he does have the alt & speed to turn & close I'll zoom when he's about 2k behind me.
Normally this will let me do a full zoom & get guns on. Take the HO shot, or duck depends on the situation.

Repeat as needed, but never feed one of the good sticks the same 2 moves in a row. They pick up on little things like that.

By this time either your dead, or E states are ussually starting to equalize. (unless it's ammo or sancho in p47). Once they do I have the choice of diving low & running. (In la7 anyway) Or try to turn the tables.

While the later is definatly risky, when you can pull it off it is SO rewarding.

[Rude]

When I bounce a lower bandit, it always amazes me at how violent and exaggerated the evasives become. This allows me to simply throttle back and watch the show, eventually aquiring the shot.

My suggestion would be to do as little as possible and conserve whatever E state you have at that time. I will always fly as still and motionless as possible watching from the six view until about D800. Then I slide from side to side rather than turning, nose down 10-15 deg, waiting for the overshoot.

If the overshoot does not come, then a displacement roll or scissors will offer either an overshoot or create angle from which you can extend away from the bandit.

Now I speak only from the seat of a Pony and no other. In the Mustang, I can assure you that the key is to be as subtle as possible...guard that E for it provides options and options are a fine thing to have at your disposal. Another skill which also will help you is to learn to fly from the six view...be aware of your alt, terrain and the attitude of your of your aircraft.

Hope this helps

[Steven]

Soviet,

I do not have much time at all in the P47 but I do have some time in the F6F and I am always very leary of the Spit, N1K2 and LA7.  A Spit diving down on me in a Hellcat is always trouble and I've found no easy answers except run if I can.  Sometimes that doesn't even work depending on the initial height advantage and probably depending on whether it's a Spit9 or Spit5.  Break turns do not seem to work as well vs the Spit than it does against most other fighters.  
I don't seem to have quite the same amount of problems in an F6F vs the N1K and am not sure why.  If co-alt, just head straight at him and duck his HO and keep moving in that same direction unless you have friendlies around to help you tackle the guy.  Depending on pilot skill I have been able to win a 1v1 against a N1K2 but it is a rare thing.  
Again, with the LA7 you need to make sure you have friendlies out there with you outnumbering the bad guys.  You will not be able to run from an LA7.  And I once got into a treetop level horizontal turn engagement with an LA7 and no one made any ground on the other in a couple turns.  However, in that particular case there were other badguys swooping in taking potshots at me during it and I finally got smoked.  I broke my rule when flying the F6F in trying to be involved in situations where there is more green than red.  
Basically, the Spit, N1K and LA7 are very tough and especially so vs a Hellcat.  When I fly the Hellcat, I do not fear anything American 1v1.  You may have to wear your opponent down while on the defensive by making break turns when he's in firing range on your six and then quickly reversing back to try to fire at him as he zooms off... or keep an eye on your opponent as he zooms off and do not break back into him but keep a steady climb without slowing too much to try to equal out the E.  Once they try a tailchase they are slow and you can turn with them and have a chance.

Not sure if this helped.  I do fly the F6F out there and I'm not that great of a stick but she can get you into some very challenging and rewarding situations or she can frustrate you to no end because much of the opposition with be Spits, N1Ks and LA7s.  Hey, I just looked and I have more kills in F6F than have been killed in it so it can be a success.

[crutch]

1. Level out, if not go into a slight dive, to start increasing your speed.
2. Turn slightly just to keep the con diving in on you.
3. Make the con predictable. You can do this by keeping your slight turn up.  If you stay straight the con is unpredictable, he can break left or right, extend ahead or extend in a climb (he could dive, but that means he's giving up the fight).
By turning, you limit his options by at least one - He's not going to break inside your turn(not without a major loss of E)
As the con gets closer, increase your turn rate, you can even dive slightly. If he trys to follow you, his own speed is going to work against him. (basic judo - use his strenghts against him).
4. After his pass, you can reverse into him if he blew a lot of E or you can ease off your turn and run away to come back with an advantage later.

[Keez]

This turning into the con and diving last minute is working a treat! I just tried it and I didn't get killed by a bouncer a single time, won every confrontation with a higher con! Wohoot!