Author Topic: U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....  (Read 2963 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2004, 05:26:55 PM »
And when WW2 came, as Laz pointed out... Churchill himself supervised the shipment of small arms from America to England to arm the Home Guard.

Guess it's all in how you view "temporary".

I don't know everything about Britain, nor have I ever presented myself as an expert in all things (<-- that would be you, at least in you own mind) English (<-- that apparently would also be you... at least in your own mind). I know more about Britain in some areas of expertise than you do obviously.

For example, I feel certain I'm far more knowledgeable than you when it comes to the English shooting sports and the English people that participate in them. Probably English Labradors and their proper breeding as well.

Apparently, I'm also intelligent enough to see that the words Devon and Devonshire are both still in current use in England and reference exactly the same area of the country. But then I'm not sure anyone here can dance around semantics to no purpose quite the way you do.

As to the guns question, it's pretty simple. When guns were available to law-abiding citizen without much ado... the ones who wanted them got them.

The ones that didn't... did not. I'm amazed that escaped you.

Now, it's pretty clear that English society and American society are vastly different with respect to participation in field sports and shooting sports in general. Part of it may trace back to the fact that all your game at one time belonged to the Crown, while that was one of the very first concepts we tossed when we threw the English government out of here. Here, the game has always belonged to the people. Without doubt, that created a vast difference in the particpation in shooting sports in our two countries. So vast that the difference in firearms ownership still reflects it today.

Additionally, our country is so vast and the game so plentiful that hunting opportunities are very inexpensive and quite often free, both on public and private land. This is clearly not the case in England and is another major factor in why more of us are familiar with and own firearms than you folks. Game is plentiful, hunting is cheap and opportunities abound.

The point, of course, is that if England had the history of public game ownership, plentiful game and free hunting on vast amounts of public land then a larger portion of your population might have purchased firearms of all sorts. For example, one of my favorite pastimes in my youth was hunting rabbits with a .22 Ruger Mark I semi-auto pistol. I walked many, many miles in the snow enjoying the outdoors and getting the makings for my Mom's famous braised rabbit. It might well have been so with more of the English youth if hunting was as easy, available and cheap as it is here.

As for your other oft repeated refrain on raw numbers, no one here that I am aware of has ever made the case that the US isn't a more violent society than the UK. We are indeed.

The question is whether gun bans would make us less violent or whether it would just shift the violence to other utensils, like sharp instruments. There is some evidence available to suggest this might well occur.

Violent crime soars during police crackdown

Quote
October 03, 2004

Police forces are also concerned about the increase in knife crime. Government figures showed offences involving possession of weapons have risen 36% since 1999. Murders with sharp instruments rose from 200 in 1997 to 272 last year....

...An internal Metropolitan police report showed that a crime involving a knife is committed every 25 minutes in London.


Sharp instrument murders up ~ 35% since the handgun ban. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.


And we differ in another area concderning "raw numbers". You routinely mock the "folks that need killing" statement. Fine. Value all human life the same.

If I come home and find someone choking my wife, I'll most definitely attempt to kill the perpetrator without remorse. If he becomes a "homicide statistic", I'll mentally subtract him from the total.

I feel the same about rapists that attack old women and get killed in the attempt. I feel the same about several categories of criminals.

And raw numbers don't tell those tales but they are there in the totals just the same.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2004, 07:43:21 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #136 on: October 31, 2004, 04:04:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Chickensbornbonelessskinlesso nstyrofoamplateland.


I think you mean Chickensbornbonelessskinlesso npolystyreneplateland - if you're talking to me. We don't have "styrofoam" - unless that's something that grows in "Devonshire" ;)

I actually found your account of hunting in our two countries quite interesting. :aok I've been surprised how some folks there can go and shoot a deer. I don't think we could do that here. Don't you have to pay for it or anything?

On sharp instruments, I see you've gone back to your old trickery of quoting percentages when referring to British stats, because the variation in the figures is so small. Yes, sharp instrument homicides have increased from 200 (1997) to 272 last year - an increase of 72, and a value that wouldn't register a blip on US totals of 14,000+.  
Quote
Sharp instrument murders up ~ 35% since the handgun ban. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm.
Are you saying that this increase comes as a RESULT of the gun "ban"? Then you do agree that the gun "ban" is having an effect?

A knife cannot be used through a gate or a door or in a drive-by killing as happened in Nottingham recently. For every killing opportunity that presents itself to the carrier of a potentially lethal knife, the offender would have many more opportunities if he were to be carrying a gun. The fact that knives are carried instead of guns goes to show that the perpetrators cannot get guns. (ie. our gun control works)  If they could, the number of homicides would be much higher. Better an increase of 72 homicides by knife than an increase of 3000 homicides were guns to be available.



One last thing - speaking of sharp instruments: How did it go on Friday? I wasn't expecting you back so soon.

Offline SC-Sp00k

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #137 on: October 31, 2004, 05:28:05 AM »
Are you people having a gun thread without me ?

Am I too late?


:)

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #138 on: October 31, 2004, 05:44:27 AM »
LOL Spook!

Toad said
Quote
I've made my positon clear enough and given folks the history. I never had any intent of changing your mind. However, I think the readers of this thread and look at both sides can decide for themselves.
Since he said it, the score has now reached Beet1e 3, Toad 0.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #139 on: October 31, 2004, 08:14:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Don't you have to pay for it or anything?
[/b]

All must have a "general" State hunting license...this is an "over the counter" affair that is merely revenue collection to fund the State Fish and Game agencies. There's no test or qualification per se. Most states also require a "deer tag" which is merely more revenue collection.

For example a Kansas resident would pay $19.75 for his annual hunting license. Non-residents get gouged a bit more. The deer tag is $31. So, call it about $50 to hunt deer during the ~ three week season.

Last year Kansas had 92,141 total deer hunters (82,885 residents; 9,256 nonresidents). 73.000 deer were taken.

Much (most?) of this is on "no charge" public hunting land. We have State and Federal land such as that around resevoirs that is open to free hunting. In Kansas this is on the order of 300,000 acres. Kansas (and most other midwest states) has adopte the "Walk-In" hunting program, where land is leased from farmers to allow public hunting. You just can't drive on the land in a vehicle. (This is one place those license fees go). In Kansas, there nearly 1 million acres of this. Beyond that, the majority of farmers will let you hunt for free if you are presentable and know how to ask in a polite, reasonable manner.

Kansas is not exceptional in these numbers. Nebraska, South Dakota, etc. are similar.  Last year Nebraska sold 112,563 deer permits. Iowa sold 216,162. South Dakota sold 100,482. Texas sold almost 1 million deer permits; 999,787.

So, as you can see our hunting tradition features strongly in the number of firearms here. It's something England really doesn't have due to the way Game was "owned" and used throughout your history.

Quote
On sharp instruments, I see you've gone back to your old trickery of quoting percentages when referring to British stats,
[/b]

No, you miss the argument.

Your homicide rates per 100,000 have remained essentially the same both before and after the ban. In other words, the annual rates for say 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997 are amazingly close to the rates for 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002.

So while you banned handguns, semi-auto and pump rifles and shotguns your homicides per 100K remained about the same before and after the ban.

So, with all these guns removed from the dangerous hands of the public, how did the people die in order to keep the homicide rate about the same?

Most likely, and right now I don't have time for a stat check, the gun homicide rate hasn't dropped all that much. Your handgun homicides are already done with illegally held guns anyway. But, to make up for any drop in gun homicides there are.....

Sharp instruments. Obviously, you've got about the same amount of homicide. They had to be killed with something, and stats show sharp instrument killings are up significantly.

So, the question remains if you pick up all the handguns will killers merely switch to something else, like sharp instruments? The jury is really still out on that, but the experience in England suggests that might be the case.

Now, I'm off. Driving to Houston to see the docs at MD Anderson and get this thing out. Ta.

Oh... one other thing. You seem to focus on "posters" rather than "readers".

As I said before, I'll let the readers decide for themselves.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2004, 08:19:25 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
for when you get back...
« Reply #140 on: October 31, 2004, 09:08:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Your homicide rates per 100,000 have remained essentially the same both before and after the ban. In other words, the annual rates for say 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997 are amazingly close to the rates for 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002.

So while you banned handguns, semi-auto and pump rifles and shotguns your homicides per 100K remained about the same before and after the ban.

So, with all these guns removed from the dangerous hands of the public, how did the people die in order to keep the homicide rate about the same?
You should have listened to Dowding when he said
Quote
Gun ownership before the "ban": sod all. Gun ownership after the "ban": sod all.
So when you talk about "all these guns removed from the dangerous hands of the public", the truth is that there were probably very, very few.  This would also explain Lazs's conundrum - how did the 1920 legislation sail through parliament without a protest? Why did "all those" gun owners meekly surrender their weapons? Answer: there weren't as many as Lazs thought...

...History shows that although the British people are not renegades, they will put up a protest when Government is acting in a manner in which they do  not approve. Examples in modern times would include the 2000 fuel tax revolt, the 1990 poll tax revolt (and riots), the 1981 unemployment riots in Croxteth & Toxteth, and the Countryside Alliance march on London a couple of years ago - 2001 I think - in protest at the government's proposal to ban fox hunting. So I put it to you that the absence of any riot or protest in the wake of gun control legislation amply demonstrates that people had no quarrel with gun "ban" legislation and/or that there were very, very few people who would be affected by it.

I do apologise for being tedious - sorry, but I just can't help being right. :D
Quote
Oh... one other thing. You seem to focus on "posters" rather than "readers".

As I said before, I'll let the readers decide for themselves.


Wanna borrow my smoke and mirrors? :lol

GET WELL SOON! :aok

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #141 on: November 01, 2004, 08:45:24 AM »
lets break it down... you have never been guarenteed the right to defend yourself from tyranny from within or without... it has allways been at the whim of your government... they have changed their mind from time to time like early laws that reqauired citizens to stop criminals with any weapon available to latter laws that make it a crime to stop a criminal with a weapon in all but the most dire circumstance.

you never has any rights so far as protectiing yourself... it was never really given to you... as a result... what you are allowed to do has been regulated heavily by your government.  

Another thing is that you are overpopulated.   limiting weapons to shotguns is allmost allways the first sign of overpopulation... it happens in the East coast here in some areas.    

extreme regulation is a ban for all practical purposes.   If there is a certain percentage of the poplation that wishs to own rifles and handguns and keep and bear them and they are so heavily regulated that it becomes allmost impossible to do so then it is in effect a ban.

That is what has happened to you and what is planned for us in the U.S.  

Overpopulation will determine what happens here along with changes in the supreme court.

The truth is that there is a percentage of people in entgland who would like to freely own firearms that can't... pistols, revolvers and center fire rifles kept in their home and used to protect them and their family.... and neighbors.   This is not allowed... their freedoms are squashed... your crime is up because of it and the criminals are become more bold every day... so much so that you need to introduce guns into your society to stop it..... police guns.   your government and your police and your criminals will be armed.... soon..

the only people not armed will be the law abiding.

lazs

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #142 on: November 01, 2004, 02:24:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
lets break it down...  
Let's break your post down.

Earlier, you said you had "heard" that the US population had exceeded 300 million.

Wrong. It hasn't. It's still below 295 million.
Quote
you never has any rights so far as protectiing yourself...
Wrong. An Englishman's home is his castle, as the saying goes. Which means we can use "reasonable force" to defend ourselves. What is "reasonable force"? Last month, a judge decreed that "reasonable force" had been used when a farmer shot an intruder with a shotgun.
Quote
Another thing is that you are overpopulated. limiting weapons to shotguns is allmost allways the first sign of overpopulation...
You have said, repeatedly, that we lost all our rights in 1920, since which we could own only shotguns. Were we overpopulated in 1920? And was that the reason we "lost all our rights"?
Quote
The truth is that there is a percentage of people in entgland who would like to freely own firearms that can't... pistols, revolvers and center fire rifles kept in their home and used to protect them and their family.... and neighbors.
That percentage is nowhere as big as you'd like to think it is. For your statement to have any validity, you need to provide a source - or is this just another of those tidbits that you "heard"?
Quote
your crime is up because of it
Wrong. Twice. 1)Our crime is not up - it is down. Read the British Crime Survey provided in that Home Office report which I posted further up. Toad posted a link to the same document. 2) If our crime had gone up, as you erroneously suggest, it would not have been because of guns. Our gun homicide tally came down last year by 15%.
Quote
your police and your criminals will be armed.... soon.. the only people not armed will be the law abiding.
Wrong. There may come a day when all police are armed. When that day comes it won't be true to say that "the only people not armed will be the law abiding". The police are, in general, a law abiding bunch.

Lazs, next time you post, you might want to research a few facts and quote the sources, instead of basing your post on things you've "heard".

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #143 on: November 01, 2004, 04:04:38 PM »
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/crvs.htm

as can be seen... your crime is higher than ours in every case and is trending higher in allmost all
lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #144 on: November 01, 2004, 04:16:10 PM »
and this article... even tho you still underreport crime compared to the U.S. you are starting to do a better job.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3419401.stm#map

lazs

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #146 on: November 01, 2004, 04:57:08 PM »
as for my source on british firearms law..

"Guns and Violence the english experiance" by Joyce Lee Malcolm

How the boiled frog that is england got that way through incramentalism..

the 1870 regestration act..  handgus required to be regestered.... was pretty much ignored.  homicide rate was between 0.6 and 2.6 per 100k

1890.. 59 handgun fatalities.. 3 were homicides out of 3million population.

1903 pistol act.. restricted purchase of a pistol to men over 18 not "drunken or insane".   1911 to 1913 the largest city in the world, london had an average of 45 gun related offences per year wich dropped to 15 from 1915 to 1917.

still.... firearms were seen to be a problem...

1911 required a certificate to carry and you could be arrested and the weapon seized if carying a firearm without a certificate.   to get a certificate you needed a character reference.

fireams act of 1920 gave police the discretin to issue a permit.  the permit would have to be renewed and it include amounts of ammunition.  the applicant had to submit good reason to own a fiream.  the certificate was good for three years and subject to new fees and requalification at that time.

and so it began....

anyone notice parallels?

lazs

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #147 on: November 01, 2004, 05:01:54 PM »
That's better. :aok

But be warned: The BBC produces unreliable and conflicting stats. Toad's opening of "You have a lot to learn, Beet" was followed by his quoting a homicide stat which was overstated by a factor of 2.3!

I'll look at the others later - I'm busy tonight. One thing I did notice: In its bold assertion that our crime is higher, the BJS quoted figures for the crimes of Robbery, Assault, Burglary, and Motor Vehicle Theft - but neatly sidestepped the issue of homicide. I wonder why they left that one out...

...given that we're discussing guns/right to carry etc., it follows that the crime we're most concerned with is homicide. Or would you like to pull Tax Evasion into the equation? :lol:aok

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9891
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #148 on: November 01, 2004, 05:25:40 PM »
NZ gun laws got done over about 20 years ago. Apart from that theres been no major changes since.

Since then theres been a few nutcases off their family, even a couple of cops shot. At no stage has the gun law been queried on a "national" basis.

Nobody in NZ can justify the need to own handguns. Hence pistols are limited to "collectors". Pump action weapons are allowed (I used to pop rabbits with a beautiful little pump action .22 Browning from Belgium my father owns), I think semi's are ok still. (from about the age of 10 I used to go hunting on my own with that .22 and had a good education/respect for firearms).

Also FWIW my background to this is interesting, my father was fairly high up in a cash security company, fully licensed to carry a pistol at any time (he was rated an extreme security risk), as was his 2-ic who used to take me pistol shooting. My father refused to arm any staff, nor carry a pistol. In the few instances the company was robbed the cash was almost fully recovered within 1 month and not one staff member was seriously hurt.

Like I said, horses for courses.

Toad, I think you just don't get it, NZ has survived happily on its gun laws for about 20 years now without changing them much.

Have a read here: http://www.police.govt.nz/resources/1997/review-of-firearms-control/

Its a little biased towards tightening things up, but not too bad . Some of the figures are pulled of int'l stuff (theres no way you can buy a shotgun for $100, or a pistol for $1000, last I heard an illegal pistol would set you back $5000 for something crappy).

Offline Excel1

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 614
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #149 on: November 02, 2004, 01:39:47 AM »
Vulcan the regulations for owning a hand gun in NZ are not as tough as you might think. You dont have to be a collector to own one. If you have got the standard A-Cat firearms license and you want a B-Cat endorsement to legally own hand guns all you have to do is join a reconised club. Once joined you have to go to the club shoots for 6 months or a year(cant remember which) to prove your commitment , learn saftey, proficiency etc .
And as far as I'm aware most people don't have a problem getting
the endorsment.

As far as justification to own handguns is concerned, you just have to meet the requirements and have an interest in them and a use for them...target shooting, cowboy action shooting..etc

Pump action guns are allowed on a standard A-Cat licence without restrictions. A  18" barrel length Mosberg 500 12 gauge shotty with a pistol grip kit is legal to own, although it must be getting close to the 30" minumin overall length allowed for longarms.

On an A-Cat licence .22 semi autos are ok, but magazine capacity is limited to 15 rounds, centrefire semis are limted to 7 rounds.

That link you provided is just a summary of the Thorp report. It's more than biased, it's only one mans opinoin, and a government jack-up job in order to justify tighter gun control when none is warrented. Thorp's recomendations were always going to be for tougher gun laws because the premise for making the report is that we have a gun problem, which is bollocks, and the government knows it. Thats why the< Arms Amendment Act No2 >(the registration of all firearms) has not made it into law yet, because the goverment can't justify it on the piddling amount of gun crime in NZ. Firearm registration is the key to gun control, so Thorp's rcomended "measures" ( tip of the iceberg) won't be inflicted on us untill registration is in place first.

So we are fighting registration. And if we fail my hope is that enough gun owning kiwis don't comply so registration fails.

Excel