Author Topic: U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....  (Read 2920 times)

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2004, 08:13:32 AM »
beetle... I am not doubting you but where did you get the population data for the U.S.?  According to that the population in the U.S.  went up a little over 1% a year from 1999 to 2003?   4.7% in 4 years?    How much did englands population go up in those 4 years?   I just figured it went up more than that to account for the increase of over 8% in gun crimes.  still... not much and there was a dramatic decrese in crime.

nashwan states that gun control works because england has only 68 gun homicides while the U.S. has 10000 but... The murder rates in neither country is much affected by guns in circulation or gun laws...The U.S. has a falling crime rate   and like england... a faily steady murder rate no matter what gun laws are passed.   so... guns in America don't change murder rates much but they reduce other violent crimes and crimes against persons and....

english burglars rob you while you are in the house whereas American burglars generaly are afraid to... 1.5 million or more crimes a year are stopped by firearms in the U.S.   If only a tiny fraction of these would have ended in a homicide then guns are a deterent to homicide.   Cities with strict gun control have more homicides than cities that don't for instance.

beetle.. I will have to look it up but I believe that there was a time in the 1800's when it was pretty common for brits to carry concealled handguns.

truth is... copuntries that ban firearms don't really do it over any logical statistical data... they couldn't... No, they predicate most of their gun laws on a single event by a madman.... some public shooting spree.   They allways claim that they are taking away human rights to prevent any crazy man from ever shooting anyone again... and, since it doesn't usually happen for the next few years.... claim victory over madness,   course... it didn't happen for decades before the ban but... hey... we ain't talking logic here.

tweety... I like you too just not in that way.   Who ya voting for this week?  who made you mad?   Never understood what an "undecided voter" was till tweety started posting.

lazs

Offline Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4270
      • Wait For It
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2004, 08:28:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
A sure sign of a slow economy.

Poor kids without jobs tend to join gangs.


Bad parental skills.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
British gun ban myths
« Reply #92 on: October 28, 2004, 11:26:51 AM »
Mr. Toad is very fond of referring to certain 1997 British firearms legislation as a “gun ban”. In his own “short story” excerpt, Mr. Toad points out that "Thus the Firearms Act of 1920 sailed through Parliament. Britons who had formerly enjoyed a right to arms were now allowed to possess pistols and rifles only if they proved they had "good reason" for receiving a police permit.” Thus, guns were effectively banned in 1920. That being the case, how could guns be banned again in 1996/1997 when they were already banned? They couldn’t. And that’s because the 96/97 legislation was not a “gun ban”. It was an addendum or codicil to existing legislation, under which guns have been “banned” for generations.

As for those who had “formerly enjoyed a right to arms”, the author of Mr. Toad’s reference work seeks to interpret the gun situation in Britain from an American perspective. That does not work. The 1920 legislation came about shortly after WW1. There would have been a lot of old WW1 service revolvers left lying around – ready to be stolen and used by criminals perhaps… 1920 predates me by some margin, and I have no idea of the public mood with regard to firearms at that time. But I don’t suppose for one minute that there were any pro-gun diehards chaining themselves to the gates of Buckingham Palace, and chanting ”From my cold dead hands”. You have to remember that Britain has never had a love affair with guns in the way America has. It seems likely that, following a war which was costly in terms of human suffering, most people were only too glad to see redundant guns collected up and melted down, and to put that chapter of history behind them. Certainly, I cannot recall ANYONE from my grandparents’ generation harking back to the “good old days when we had guns”.

The fact that the 1997 “gun ban” did little to influence gun crime was because it wasn’t a ban. So why is Mr. Toad so fond of referring to it as such? There are two reasons. One is of course that it gives him a leg up on the one-upmanship ladder, from which he can crow “Your ‘gun ban’ didn’t work”. The other reason is closer to (his) home. America’s gun nuts are worried about their gun rights being eroded. Mr. Toad comments on the chronology of gun law in Britain, and how our “rights were taken away” by the anti gun crowd, and then adds “You'll also find that anti-gun US groups are using the same techniques”. It’s understandable the the pro-gun crowd should be worried, what with a presidential election scheduled for next week, and with Kerry edging ahead in the polls. The second reason Mr. Toad refers to our most recent firearms legislation as a “gun ban” falls into two parts.
  • Part 1 is because his largely American audience will be gulled into believing that prior to the 1997 “gun ban”, Britain had a policy of guns-4-all just like the US. This illusion is very easy for Mr. Toad to conjour up because most Americans have never been outside the US, and therefore have no concept of an unarmed society: Guns-4-All is the only thing they’ve ever known. I see the evidence for this in numerous posts – guys who believe that the “confiscation” of our guns was a prelude to our being “rounded up and exterminated” – and other such tripe in which the author has drawn parallels with events from earlier centuries under oppressive totalitarian regimes. Couple that with Mr. Toad’s alarmist rhetoric of “You'll also find that anti-gun US groups are using the same techniques”, and it’s easy to see why the pro-gun crowd can be won over into his camp.
  • Part 2 is that by calling the 1997 legislation a “gun ban” when in fact it was a modification to earlier legislation which itself had kept our gun crime at relatively low levels, Mr. Toad can turn to his pro-gun American audience and say “See – ‘gun bans’ don’t work – it didn’t change anything in Britain, and it wouldn’t change anything here”.
And Mr. Toad’s campaign of convincing pro gun Americans of that has not been without success. He wants people to believe that “bans don’t work” in order to beef up his campaign at home, and to derail any attempts to legislate against guns in the US.

The logic is flawed, of course. As Mr. Toad himself would readily concede, gun crime in Britain was next to nothing both before and after 1997. The reason for that is simple. The 1997 legislation had little to do with it. Earlier legislation dating back to the first half of the last century ensured that no gun culture developed, and that there was never a situation by which there were gun shops in every neighbourhood. Because good people never had guns, bad people could never target any to steal.

We have however always had shotguns, but these would largely be owned by country folk – pheasant shooters, farmers. But this meant that criminals could get them too. So whereas in America, a heist might involve handguns, here it would be shotguns. But these were cumbersome and difficult to conceal, even after the illegal modification of having the barrel shortened.
Quote
Originally posted by Mr. Toad
Your gun crime always has been low.
I guess that means we must be doing something right, or that our gun control works – or both. :aok

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Re: British gun ban myths
« Reply #93 on: October 28, 2004, 01:43:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Thus, guns were effectively banned in 1920. That being the case, how could guns be banned again in 1996/1997 when they were already banned? They couldn’t. And that’s because the 96/97 legislation was not a “gun ban”. It was an addendum or codicil to existing legislation, under which guns have been “banned” for generations.


I do so love it when you again so clearly show you have no idea what you are talking about. You really ought to do a bit of study of your country's gun laws before you pontificate.

Quote
..In 1903, Parliament enacted a gun control law that appeared eminently reasonable. The Pistols Act of 1903 forbade pistol sales to minors and felons and dictated that sales be made only to buyers with a gun license. The license itself could be obtained at the post office, the only requirement being payment of a fee. People who intended to keep the pistol solely in their house did not even need to get the postal license....

...In the early years of the Firearms Act Firearms (of 1920) the law was not enforced with particular stringency, except in Ireland, where revolutionary agitators were demanding independence from British rule, and where colonial laws had already created a gun licensing system.[63] Within Great Britain, a "firearms certificate" for possession of rifles or handguns was readily obtainable. Wanting to possess a firearm for self-defense was considered a "good reason" for being granted a firearms certificate....

....The next rounds of legislative action were aimed at knives, rather than guns. The 1953 Prevention of Crime Act outlawed the carrying of an "offensive weapon" and put the burden of proof on anyone found with an "offensive weapon," such as a knife, to prove that he had a reasonable excuse....

...At Jenkins' request the British government began drafting the legislation that became the Criminal Justice Act of 1967. The new act required a license for the purchase of shotguns.[91] Like the Gun Control Act of 1968 in the United States,[92] Britain's 1967 Act was part of a comprehensive crime package that included a variety of infringements on civil liberties. For example, the British Act abolished the necessity for unanimous jury verdicts in criminal trials, eliminated the requirement for a full hearing of evidence at committal hearings, and restricted press coverage of those hearings.

Under the 1967 system, which is still in force for the most part, a person wishing to obtain his first shotgun needed to obtain a "shotgun certificate." The local police could reject an applicant if they believed that his "possession of a shotgun would endanger public safety." The police were required to grant the certificate unless the applicant had a particular defect in his background such as a criminal record or history of mental illness.[94] An applicant was required to supply a countersignatory, a person who would attest to the accuracy of the information in the application. During an investigation (p.421)period that could last several weeks, the police might visit the applicant's home.[95] In the first decades of the system, about ninety-eight percent of all applications were granted.

...The British "firearms certificate" system of 1920 had required that a person who wished to possess a rifle or handgun prove he had "a good reason."[102] In the early years of the system, self-defense had been considered "a good reason,"[103] but, by the 1960s, it was a well-established police practice that only "sporting" purposes, and not self-defense could justify issuance of a rifle or handgun license.

Parliament had never voted to outlaw defensive gun ownership, but self-defense fell victim to what Schauer calls "the consequences of linguistic imprecision."[104] When a legal rule is expressed in imprecise terms there is a heightened risk that subsequent interpreters of the rule may apply the rule differently than the formulators of the rule would have.[105]

...Thus, while self-defense was a "good reason" in 1921, in later decades the government had decided that a "good reason" did not include (p.423)self-defense. In practice, being a certified member of a government-approved target shooting club became the only way a person could legally purchase a pistol....

....The Hungerford atrocity (August 19, 1987 was the only instance in which a self-loading rifle had been used in a British homicide. Punishing every owner of an object because one person misused the object might seem unfair, but two factors worked in favor of prohibition. First, the cabinet leadership observed that the number of owners of self-loading rifles was relatively small, so no important number of voters would be offended. Second, shotgun owners, who are by far the largest group of gun owners, generally decided that they did not care what the government did to someone else's rifles.[137]

.....Parliament responded. Semi-automatic centerfire rifles, which had been legally owned for nearly a century, were banned.[138] Pump-action rifles were banned as well, since it was argued that these guns could be substituted for semi-automatics. Practical Rifle Shooting, the fastest-growing sport in Britain, vanished temporarily, although participants eventually switched to bolt-action rifles....

...While the Dunblane Enquiry did recommend many new controls, the Enquiry did not recommend banning all handguns.[158] Prime Minister John Major's Conservative government had decided to accept what it knew would be the Cullen recommendations, tightening the licensing system still more, but not banning handguns. However, then Labour Party leaders brought Dunblane spokesperson Anne Pearston to a rally, and, in effect, denounced opponents of a handgun ban as accomplices in the murder of school children. Prime Minister Major, who was already doing badly in the polls, crumbled. He promptly announced that the Conservative government would BAN handguns above .22 caliber, and .22 caliber handguns would have to be stored at shooting clubs, not in homes.[159]

A few months later, Labour Party leader Tony Blair was swept into office in a landslide. One of his first acts was to complete the handgun ban by removing the exemption for .22s.[160] The Home Office was unable to produce any statistics regarding the use of .22 pistols in crime.



So, Beet... as you can see, once again you are just WRONG.
Guns WERE NOT "effectively banned in 1920". They weren't banned in the least.

Secondly, you are also WRONG when you say "and that’s because the 96/97 legislation was not a “gun ban". The 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Act was indeed a ban. It banned all  handguns.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #94 on: October 28, 2004, 02:06:20 PM »
Quote
The fact that the 1997 “gun ban” did little to influence gun crime was because it wasn’t a ban.


As has been shown, it most definitely was a ban of all handguns. You know, the type of gun used most often in criminal activities?

It DID NOT affect your gun crime either. So why I bring it up? Because it shows that it was pointless and did nothing. There was simply no reason to take those away because the law-abiding gun owners that particpated in the confiscation WERE NOT THE PROBLEM.

 
Quote
that prior to the 1997 “gun ban”, Britain had a policy of guns-4-all just like the US.


Indeed, if you read your own history you will see that you did have a "guns for all policy". In 1920, "self defense" was considered a legitimate reason for an Englishman to have pistol.  While not everyone may have taken advantage of it, everyone certainly could purchase a gun if they so desired, handguns included. There were no restrictions on long guns or shotguns. Over the years, however, your Parliament followed the exact same path our "anti-gun" faction is trying to pursue here.

They started by merely requiring a license for pistols (1903). Then it was a Firearms Certificate to own a hangun or a rifle (1920). Then a license for shotguns (1967). Next, a total BAN on semi-automatic and pump action rifles in response to Hungerford (1987). Followed at last by the BAN on handguns after Dunblane (1997).

It's this "camel's nose in the tent" approach that clearly has been the course of action in England that US anti-gun factions are trying to follow here.

It would be one thing if one or two additional reasonable restrictions were the goal. However, CLEARLY, the "antis" are not satisfied until they have banned firearms. And, even then, it's not enough. Check out the English discussion on Airguns, Replicas and yes, even sharp instruments that continues over there right now.

And there are other aspects as well:

Quote
To enforce the gun control laws, the police have been given broad search and seizure powers. Sections 46 through 50 of the 1968 Firearms Act authorized the police to search individuals and vehicles without warrants, to require the handing-over of weapons for inspection, and to arrest without a warrant, even in a home.[246]

The principle of warrantless searches for firearms was expanded to include searches for "offensive weapons" by the Police and Criminal Evidence Bill of 1984. Since "offensive weapons" are never defined, the police have nearly unlimited authority to search and seize. African combs, bunches of keys, and tools have been considered offensive weapons.




How's that 4th Amendment look now... in comparison to a country that has no Constituion? Pretty good, eh?

The 2nd still looks pretty good to me too. For the same reasons.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 02:08:44 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #95 on: October 28, 2004, 02:23:52 PM »
Toad... there is an excellent book called "Guns and Violence The English Experiance"

It seeks to explain exactly what you have shown.   I believe that the way you distilled it tho is about as concise an arguemenmt against incramentalism (the slow erossion of firearms rights) that I have seen.

thanks

lazs

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #96 on: October 28, 2004, 03:13:20 PM »
Mr. Toad,

Yet again, you fail miserably by having fallen into the trap of trying to interpret the gun situation in Britain from an American perspective. I can tell you've drawn your (erroneous) conclusions never having spoken with anyone who actually lives here. Oh wait you have the guys in your beater's hut. All 50 of them :aok

You say that "Guns WERE NOT effectively banned in 1920. They weren't banned in the least.", but earlier you said
Quote
"Thus the Firearms Act of 1920 sailed through Parliament. Britons who had formerly enjoyed a right to arms were now allowed to possess pistols and rifles only if they proved they had "good reason" for receiving a police permit"
- ie they were as good as banned. So you contradicted yourself. Or are you seriously suggesting that in 1995 (prior to the 1997 Blair legislation) that I could have walked into a gun shop and bought a handgun like a .44 Magnum or a 1911/.45 semi auto for no better a reason than that I wanted one? What freaking use would a gun control law be that allowed that? :rolleyes:

Well, you are WRONG. For two reasons:
  • I would not have been able to convince the police of my need to have a gun. After all, 99.98% of the population didn't have one - why should the police make an exception for me? If you are saying that any desire I might have to own a gun constitutes a valid reason for having one, well that's a nonsense, and reminds me of your country's pathetic attempts to respond to the 1979 oil crisis by limiting gasoline sales (20 gallon limit - LOL).
  • There were no gun shops anyway selling that kind of weapon.
But, as I said, it's hard for an American to grasp the concept of an unarmed society, in which there isn't a gun shop on every corner. But Mr. Toad, I thought you were a cut above the other American schm...., er, guys who post about this. Seems like I WAS wrong - on that at least. :(

But all's well that ends well - "only" 68 gun homicides last year - down 15% on the year before that...

...and yours will continue around the 10,000 mark. But what do you care? You accuse me of having contempt for the gun loving "masses" of England. I guess that sums up your feelings for the lower class non-whites who give up their lives in the name of allowing guns-4-all.

Lazs, I've read that book, and it isn't excellent. It was written using the usual formula - analyse the British gun situation from an American perspective, draw upon events from earlier centuries which are out of context with the modern world, make misguided assessments, and present the erroneous conclusions that the author had already arrived at when putting pen to paper.

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6142
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #97 on: October 28, 2004, 04:17:59 PM »
Beet1e you make continous references to *a gun shop on every corner*. While there are many outlets across this huge country that is the USA there is hardly a *gun shop on every corner*.

You also show absolutely no interest in your own countries history as it applies to crime and firearms. BEFORE any gun control laws in YOUR country, crime was at it's lowest. Your country has never had the sheer numbers of gun related crimes as mine has. In fact, regardless of how many gun control laws your country has passed, gun related crimes remain relatively constant.

You should read that entire article, it will take some time as it is quite lengthy, but very very informative. I suspect you won't bother to read it though since you already have your mind made up. Blah blah blah blah Free Shrek 2 DVD blah blah blah blah......
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline beet1e

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7848
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #98 on: October 28, 2004, 06:30:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Elfie
Beet1e you make continous references to *a gun shop on every corner*. While there are many outlets across this huge country that is the USA there is hardly a *gun shop on every corner*.
I thought you would have realised that I was speaking figuratively. And in point of fact, those are not my own words. I was merely paraphrasing what Furious Styles (played by Larry Fishburne) said in the American movie, "Boyz n the Hood". His words were: "Why do you think there's a gun shop or a liquor store on every street corner? Because they want us to kill ourselves, that's why".
Quote
"You should read that entire article, it will take some time as it is quite lengthy, but very very informative. I suspect you won't bother to read it though since you already have your mind made up. Blah blah blah blah Free Shrek 2 DVD blah blah blah blah......"
Let me get this straight. You want ME to enlighten myself by means of an article which appears on such an obviously pro-gun biased site that it calls itself guncite.com, and even uses as its caption "Until the Second Amendment is treated as normal constitutional law, this web site will always be under construction... " and then attempts to use Britain as the template for an unarmed society as a means of keeping the US wavering pro-gun sheep in the fold? You cannot be serious! :lol I started reading it, and got to the part about 1689/William III... and then I could see what it was about. It looks like an article which has been contrived to selectively pick its way through history, applying American pro-gun 2nd amendment type interpretations to something that was happening thousands of miles away. Same thing applied to Lazs's book. I read that too.

If you had actually lived in a foreign country, as I have (and I'm not just talking about military service where the guys never set foot off the base) you would understand that it is utterly fallacious to try to apply the political ethos of one country to an entirely different country.

I have lived here all my life, except for about three years during which I lived in the US. My grandparents lived through the 1920s. All four of them. I grew up here and there have been about ten Prime Ministers. And you're trying to tell me that I'm uninformed about my own country, which you have never visited and much less lived in, and that my education about Britain won't be complete until I've read a 54 page document on an American pro-gun site?

Get outta here!!! :lol

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #99 on: October 28, 2004, 06:41:12 PM »
Well, just a few things Beet, as I'm getting ready to head out to my date with the knife.

1. I've obviously spoken with far more English gun owners and users than you have and have a far better understanding of their views on England's gun laws. You've proven that repeatedly in the various threads here.

2. American perspective has nothing to do with it. Your difficulty results from you near-total lack of understanding of your own nation's firearms regulation history.

3. You once again try to obfuscate with semantics. It's clear that guns were not banned in 1920.


As the article points out, at that time

Quote
Within Great Britain, a "firearms certificate" for possession of rifles or handguns was readily obtainable. Wanting to possess a firearm for self-defense was considered a "good reason" for being granted a firearms certificate


You certainly can't call that a ban. However, after Dunblane

Quote
Prime Minister Major... promptly announced that the Conservative government would BAN handguns above .22 caliber, and .22 caliber handguns would have to be stored at shooting clubs, not in homes.

A few months later, Labour Party leader Tony Blair was swept into office in a landslide. One of his first acts was to complete the handgun ban by removing the exemption for .22s.



there was a ban. You see that Major and Blair made possession of any handgun illegal and there were two amnesty periods (that I'm aware of, maybe more) where people turned in banned weapons.

From your favorite news source, the BBC:

 UKWeapons amnesty for new gun law

Quote
Saturday, January 31, 1998 Published at 13:03 GMT

A near-total ban on privately held handguns comes into force in Britain on Sunday.

Gun owners will have a one-month amnesty to hand in weapons of .22 calibre and below without prosecution.

The ban follows last year's surrender of larger weapons after the Dunblane massacre where 16 children and a teacher were killed.
 
Antique weapons are excluded from the ban

Labour extended the ban on privately held guns to the smaller weapons after the party won the 1997 General Election.


Dance all you like, after Dunblane tens of thousands of legally owned handguns were BANNED. The first amnesty reportedly netted ~160,000 handguns.



Quote
Well, you are WRONG. For two reasons:
  • I would not have been able to convince the police of my need to have a gun.
Note well that when the 1920 Firearms Act was passed, wanting to possess a firearm for self-defense was considered a "good reason" for being granted a firearms certificate.

Quote
Parliament had never voted to outlaw defensive gun ownership, but self-defense fell victim to what Schauer calls "the consequences of linguistic imprecision."[104] When a legal rule is expressed in imprecise terms there is a heightened risk that subsequent interpreters of the rule may apply the rule differently than the formulators of the rule would have.[105] Thus, while self-defense was a "good reason" in 1921, in later decades the government had decided that a "good reason" did not include (p.423)self-defense.
[/b]

Quote
Beet:
If you are saying that any desire I might have to own a gun constitutes a valid reason for having one, well that's a nonsense
[/b]

Me? It's what YOUR Parliament said in 1920.

Well, we've about beet this to death again. I think you've made your positions and unsupported hypotheses clear.

I've made my positon clear enough and given folks the history.

I never had any intent of changing your mind. However, I think the readers of this thread and look at both sides can decide for themselves.

Ta.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 09:04:50 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6142
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #100 on: October 28, 2004, 06:54:20 PM »
Beet1e you claim there were always gun control laws in Britain. In YOUR lifetime yes, but it wasnt always that way. You also completely ignore the fact that gun related crime isnt affected by gun control laws. BEFORE ANY gun control laws were in effect your country had its lowest crime rates, including gun related crimes.

Read the history of your own country's attempts at controling guns. I read it with an open mind and found it very interesting.

Until you start looking at issues with an open mind....Blah blah blah blah Free Shrek 2 DVD blah blah blah blah.....


btw Beet1e, that comes from an American tv commercial so you probably wont get it :D
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9884
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #101 on: October 28, 2004, 09:15:11 PM »
Damn this is amusing stuff... I wonder if the pro-gun yanks realize that firearms "offences" in countries like England, Australia, and New Zealand can involve minor things such as air rifles, brandishing  imitation pistols, failing to secure firearms, storing a loaded firearm in a vehicle etc?

Sure England has tightened up its firearms and taken away the ease of which firearms can be owned, but this is to prevent their already low firearm crime rate from slipping down the path the US has gone.

In NZ, ANYONE can own a firearm... but you must be licensed, and to be licensed you must"
 - be 18 or over
 - be of fit mental health
 - provide references of good character
 - be interviewed by a Police officer
 - prove you have suitable safe lockable storage for your firearm
 - prove you have a reason to own (for recreational purposes you should belong to a gun club)
 - pass a test proving fundamental knowledge of gun safety

You cannot own an automatic weapon or pistol unless you go for a "collectors" license which involves more rigorous testing.

As I understand it the Aussie and English rules are fairly similar.

99.99% of the population is happy with this, only a few fringe nutcases who fail the above requirements are unhappy.

NZ and Australia both have a relatively high ratio of recreational hunters and sports shooters as well. 4 Million people on a couple of islands bigger than England = lotsa happy hunting grounds. So it can't be that bad.

Toad/Lazs/Nuke. I understand the situation in the US, its pretty bad, and if I lived there I sure as hell would want to be armed. But you cannot compare the US with these other countries, or visa versa. The NZ state of gunlaws cannot be applied to the US just as the US gunlaws would have no place in NZ.

Oh and toad, ANY criminal cannot obtain a firearm in NZ/Aussie/England. They must have the right contacts, be able to find someone who actually has something to sell, and be prepared to spend a LOT of $$$ to obtain an illegal firearm (ie thousands for something crappy).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2004, 09:17:12 PM by Vulcan »

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #102 on: October 28, 2004, 09:29:08 PM »
I don't think a comparison is being made, unless you are comparing the incredible differences.

As I've said before, if there were reasonable people on both sides of the gun question in the US, perhaps something could be done.

However, it is more than clear that the "anti" side will settle for one thing and one thing only. They want all guns banned and confiscated.

What might be possible here if the Supreme Court re-affirmed the 2nd Amendment? Came out and once again, even more CLEARLY than it is right now, stated that the right of the common, everyday citizen of the US to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed?

Perhaps then many of us would be amenable to additional background investigation/licensing/training type programs.

However, as it is now, I am totally certain that NOTHING will satisfy the antis but the eventual abolition of the common man's right to own and use firearms. So, I won't give an inch. I know where it leads.

The history of England's gun control shows the problem exactly. "More" is never enough for the antis. It never stops.

I expect someday NZ will go the way of England and Australia. You'll get to the ban/confiscation point yourselves eventually, even though it will make no sense.

The Hungerford atrocity was the only instance in which a self-loading rifle had been used in a British homicide. Yet it resulted in a knee-jerk ban of all semi-automatic and pump action rifles. You guys will eventually have your Hungerford/Dunblane.

Quote
The British government used the same principle as do people who are cooking frogs. If a cook throws a frog in a pot of boiling water, he will jump out, but if the cook puts a frog in a pot of moderately warm water, and gradually raises the temperature, the frog will slowly lose consciousness, and be unable to escape by the time the water gets to a boil.


You are the the slightly cooked frogs at this point. ;)

Me? I'm going to sit on the 2nd and refuse to get in the pot. :)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfie

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6142
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #103 on: October 28, 2004, 09:53:54 PM »
Quote
I wonder if the pro-gun yanks realize that firearms "offences" in countries like England, Australia, and New Zealand can involve minor things such as air rifles, brandishing imitation pistols, failing to secure firearms, storing a loaded firearm in a vehicle etc?


Same things can be classified as firearms offences by Yank laws too Vulcan :) Laws vary from state to state, laws even vary from the state level to the federal level. So some of those things like failing to secure a firearm might not be an offense in one state, but can be in another.

I'm not trying to compare the US situation to the situation in other countries either. Our situation is unique, as yours is.


Quote
NZ and Australia both have a relatively high ratio of recreational hunters and sports shooters as well. 4 Million people on a couple of islands bigger than England = lotsa happy hunting grounds. So it can't be that bad.


That is making me turn green with envy.  :D
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9884
U.S.A. violent crimes drop 3% but....
« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2004, 12:08:01 AM »
Doubt we'll ever get to the banning stage thanks to the early english settlers who released possums, deer, and rabbits into our ecosystem. All of which are considered pests, vermin etc, all of which need regular hunting/culling.

I think the problem is people loose a grip on what is sensible for the relative situation. England for example, has become more and more urbanised, with those really needing access to firearms becoming an ever shrinking percentage of the population.

The US, IMHO, well I can't see how you can find a "balance" between control and freedom as long as such high powered automatic weapons are so prevelant. Personally I think the anti-gun people there are nuts, its really obvious how bad the problem is and that taking guns away from those who aren't criminals will only lead to a lop sided situation.

What annoys me is when people try and compare NZ, Aussie, or England, and say how bad the gun laws are and how represive they are - which is simply BS.

I'm not anti-gun, I'm pro-gun, just in a sane kind of way.