Author Topic: Air Marshals  (Read 557 times)

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Air Marshals
« on: October 27, 2004, 08:52:43 AM »
I sit and enjoy good conversations on Thursday evenings with a pilot for Alaska Airlines at the local soccer field while practice for our kids is taking place.  We've been good friends now for 3 years since introduced via sports since he has a son the same age as mine.

Anyway, I brought up the discussion of Air Marshals.  I asked him if they introduce themselves before a flight (stupid question now that I think about it) and he said yes.  "How often do they fly? 1 of 3 flights, 2 of 3? whats the average?"  He said his routes vary, but generally speaking 1 of 2 flights is the average. Its dependant on where they fly. When they fly to Las Vegas, or DC, its 100% of the flights.  When they fly to Alaska, its probably 1 of 3 flights.  He mentioned when the new law came out allowing U.S. airline pilots to pack a weapon, that Alaska Airlines told the Pilots that anyone that packs would be fired.  The pilots union straightened out Alaska Airlines new policy, and reversed it.  He mentioned that he nor many of his fellow pilots carry because of the all the hassles (he didn't elaborate on "all the hassles")

His main concern today, along with fellow pilots, are Manpads.  One manpad would probably bring air travel to its knees worse than 9/11 and lead to a global economic turn down worse than that post-9/11.

Offline Modas

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 922
      • http://www.cutthroats.com
Air Marshals
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2004, 09:58:45 AM »
Pardon my ignorance...

Manpads??

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Air Marshals
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2004, 10:01:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Modas
Pardon my ignorance...

Manpads??


A man-portable surface-to-air missile.

Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Air Marshals
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2004, 10:58:30 AM »
The risk of a hijack these days is next to nil, aware passengers, airport screening, and cockpit doors are enough. Guns & air marshall are a waste of money. Also what will happen if a pilot with a gun goes beserk? There's nothing his fellow crew members can do in that case.

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
Air Marshals
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2004, 11:29:56 AM »
What happens if a cop or a soldier goes beserk with his or her weapon?  Should they all be disarmed as well Mora?

Of course, the only answer is NO GUNS IN THE WORLD AT ALL!


I always laugh at your argument Mora.  Ya, DON'T LET THE PILOT BE ARMED, IT'S FOR THE CHILDREN AND MAY SAVE ONE LIFE, IN CASE HE WENT BESERK!!!!

Ya, OR, he could always just **** up his landing and crash the aircraft into the ground.  Hey, you didn't think of THAT did you.  Maybe they should take away the pilot's plane in addition to his weapon, that way, we wouldn't have to worry about him going nuts and doing something rash.

Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Air Marshals
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2004, 12:09:05 PM »
Soldiers and cops carry guns beacause the bad guys carry them too. The fact is that it's impossible to get a gun onboard an aircraft. There have been several cases where pilots have deliberately tried to bring down an aircraft, and yes in many cases they have succeeded. If they would have all carried guns they would have been 100% succesful.

I've got nothing against against guns or a desire to ban them, so you can quit SHOUTING, you REDNECK. There's just no need for them in an aircraft these days, and they might create some problems while not solving any. If the aircraft is operated in an enviroment, where an absolute security cannot be guaranteed, it's a totally different thing.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 12:12:32 PM by mora »

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
Air Marshals
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2004, 12:43:05 PM »
"The fact is that it's impossible to get a gun onboard an aircraft."

Well, having trained with the guys in the Air Marshall service, having one of the instructors from my school being one of thier Chief instructors, and being an X ATC myself, I'll have to disagree with your expert opinion on this.

Do you have ANY idea how untrue and disproven your above statement is?  Even discounting the human element of things, such as, oh, say, a member of an extremist group getting a 10$ an hour job as a security officer, or somebody bribing one, sneaking a weapon past security isn't rocket science, certainly a long way from impossible, and security exercises have regularly proven that the first line of defense breaks down rather easily.  This absolute security you refer to is far from absolute.

Alert passengers and crew won't matter for a second if multiple threats armed with weapons get anywhere near the cabin area.  The "re-enforced doors"...ya, I'm not going to talk about anything regarding this on the internet, but the guys here who are pilots will understand why.  The point is, the pilot is responsible for the safety of his aircraft, the passengers, and now the potential targets his aircraft can hit on the ground.  A weapon loaded with frangible ammunition is nothing to be afraid of, the pilots aren't just issued them without any formal training.  It's no different than having a Marshall on board, other than that the pilot is ALWAYS there, the Marshall is not (of course, not all pilots are carrying weapons, watch that change if there is another hi-jacking someday).

People with your attitude Mora have been lulled into a place of false security.  Go back to the Sept 12 or 13 2001, remember how you and we all felt, and see if your opinion makes sense.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2004, 12:50:32 PM by Gman »

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Air Marshals
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2004, 12:48:28 PM »
Mora is graced with the ability to function without any encumbrance of reality.  His masterful disregard for reasoned arguments is a testament to his zenlike detachment from the confines of rational thought.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline rpm

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15661
Air Marshals
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2004, 01:00:54 PM »
While it is very, very hard for a passenger to get a gun on a plane, I would hesitate at saying it is impossible. Never say never.

Sounds like this pilot has a very real assessment of what his threats are. It would'nt take a stinger to down a commercial flight. An RPG has the range to hit a plane at low alt (take off or approach).
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
Stay thirsty my friends.

Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Air Marshals
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2004, 01:20:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Mora is graced with the ability to function without any encumbrance of reality.  His masterful disregard for reasoned arguments is a testament to his zenlike detachment from the confines of rational thought.


At least I don't go to a 3rd world country when I need a surgery...

I'm not disregarding any arguments here. I just clarified my point after one childish rant. Maybe you could come up with a reasonable argument instead of a personal attack?

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
Air Marshals
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2004, 01:25:23 PM »

Offline StarOfAfrica2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5162
      • http://www.vf-17.org
Air Marshals
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2004, 01:48:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
Soldiers and cops carry guns beacause the bad guys carry them too. The fact is that it's impossible to get a gun onboard an aircraft. There have been several cases where pilots have deliberately tried to bring down an aircraft, and yes in many cases they have succeeded. If they would have all carried guns they would have been 100% succesful.

I've got nothing against against guns or a desire to ban them, so you can quit SHOUTING, you REDNECK. There's just no need for them in an aircraft these days, and they might create some problems while not solving any. If the aircraft is operated in an enviroment, where an absolute security cannot be guaranteed, it's a totally different thing.


I'm sorry to be the one to break it to you, but govornment agents have repeatedly managed to sneak weapons, including guns, past inspectors at airports.  It is not only possible, it has happened.  No criminals have managed it yet, that anyone knows of.  Thank God.  One of the big reasons the TSA is being phased out at airports around the country is because over and over again they scored no better than private security forces in screening.  

I tend not to support guns onboard planes, but not because I believe planes are safe from terrorists.  It IS hard to get a gun on a plane.  Not impossible, but damn hard.  One guy, with one gun is a threat, yes.  But he can only shoot so many bullets and so many rounds per second, etc.  Even with a spare clip, really stretching believability, he gets what, 20 rounds?  How many people are on a commercial flight?  Add another gun to the mix now.  Not out where he can get it, but locked away.  Or in the hands of a lone air marshal.  Who is going to start the shooting?  Whoever the good guy is, he has one target.  The terrorist has around a hundred.  

You remove every gun from a plane but the one the terrorist has, the odds are against him.  This isnt like it was in the 70s when the passengers had a chance of living if they did what the guy with the gun demanded.  Everyone remembers what happened on 9/11/01.  That guy uses up his bullets, he's still gonna have a whole lot of pissed off people to deal with, and no more weapon.  And with the reinforced cockpit doors now, I dont care how many people he shoots, no pilot in his right mind is going to open that door.  He's going to land at the first airport.  

Obviously an airplane is a unique situation.  And the reasons for not having extra weapons in that situation are sound.  The same doesnt apply in many other scenarios, and even here there are multiple possibilities that could argue the presence of a gun in friendly hands would work well.  I just think the dangers outweigh the benefits.

Offline Chairboy

  • Probation
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8221
      • hallert.net
Air Marshals
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2004, 02:20:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
At least I don't go to a 3rd world country when I need a surgery...

If that's a shot, it's a miss.  My surgery went great, and I've lost a boatload of weight.  A friend of my wife had the same procedure last weekend and it also went very well.  
Quote
Originally posted by mora
I'm not disregarding any arguments here. I just clarified my point after one childish rant. Maybe you could come up with a reasonable argument instead of a personal attack?

Taking a shot at my surgery isn't a 'childish' attack?  Pot, meet Mr. Kettle.

You've been presented with rational arguments but cognitive dissonance prevents you from seeing that as such.  A pilot already holds everyones life in his hands.  He hardly needs a pistol to kill, yet there's no epidemic of passenger planes being plowed into the ground by airline pilots, for some reason.

What's the sound that a century of commercial airflight history makes when it cuts your assertion in half?
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
Air Marshals
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2004, 02:27:08 PM »
I love how Mora berates others for "personal attacks" right after he pulls one on me.

"Redneck"...ya..


Back on topic, I agree with RPM, you hardly need a sophisticated MANPAD to due damage, I could find two dozens spots here by the airport where an RPG would more than do the trick, and well they don't turn up all the time, LAW's have surfaced here in Western Canada on more than one occassion when a soldier didn't shoot it during a training X and just snuck it home.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Air Marshals
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2004, 02:31:22 PM »
Mora, not only are you wrong, you are adding to your problem by acting like an arse with all your insults...