Dive Bombing in Fighters (esp Jug)

[Sparks]

I've discovered the P47 and love it  
However I've been doing some practice runs and can't get the hang of the technique for dive bombing.
I currently try to set up a steepish dive  say 45deg with the target in the centre of the crosshairs.  Then at about 900 yds I pull up and as the target gets to the bottom of the sight I release.
I usually get sort of close but no coconut.
What does everyone else do ??

Similarly how does everyone aim Rockets.

To my mind a P47 loaded with 2 X 1000lb'rs and full rockets is the perfect Vehicle field killer   - just need to learn how to get it all on target.

Sparks

[RAM]

I wait to be near the target, dive 70-80 degrees with engine idle and release from 1K aprox. The accuracy is good and you stay out from the acks most of the time.

[Lizard3]

I try to dive from as close to verticle as I can. I trim elevators slightly past center(down)cut throttle when I've achieved a goodly high speed, and release with reticle ded center of target. I have great success with acks and hangers, but vehicles are a good deal harder to crack. Rockets are great from verticle, same as above, but when low(less than 45deg angle), I usually let the reticle come up above them before firing. I think the rockets only fly a flat path while propellent is burning(smoke trail), after that they begin to decend(ballistically)rather rapidly.  

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Lizard

"Engage the enemy; not the keyboard"
Hangtime

[Andy Bush]

Sparks

See my A2G series of articles in the Air Combat Corner at www.simhq.com  for tips and academic info on dive bombing, rocketry, and strafing.

Andy

[eskimo]

Go offline, launch from A-1 heading N/W.  you will imediatly be over A-1's VH, about 3K below.  Practice a run on the ack or hanger.  Look and see how you did, then .ef .  Repeat untill you have it down pat.  For a higher alt run, there is also a higher cliff if you launch South.  Pick an easy to ID terain target and practice on it.  Spend an hour doing this, and you will become deadly.

eskimo

[Sparks]

Thanks all  
RAM / Lizard -
1. If you dive so steep how do you achieve the pullout without lawndarting or blacking out if you leave release till 1k or less ?
2. If you are attacking an ack position which will have an effective range of say 2.5k how do you get above it low enough so you don't go supersonic in the dive (even with throttle closed) but high enough so you don't get pinged cruising overhead - this is all assuming that you need to start overhead reasonably slowly so you don't get too fast in the dive (see above question 1).

If you have any sort of figures for what to expect airspeed wise in each phase of the attack that would be helpful in my understanding.

Andy -
Can't see to get that link to work - broken site maybe ??

[Andy Bush]

Sparks

Sorry about the link. I don't know what's going on here...yours is the second message I've gotten about SimHQ links, but they seem to work OK for me. I've just checked the main page, the Air Combat Corner page, and the A2G Gunnery links.

I'm sending your tip along to our head guy...maybe he can fix the problem.

Try it again...if you can't get the site to log on...and you want the articles...let me know at alfakilo@doitnow.com.

Andy

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Sparks:
1. If you dive so steep how do you achieve the pullout without lawndarting or blacking out if you leave release till 1k or less ?

[/b]

Because I start the dive at not too big speeds, and then use dive brakes (if available), and anyway a steady pullout of 4-5G at 450 mph wont make you blakout at all and the plane will stay together.

 

2. If you are attacking an ack position which will have an effective range of say 2.5k how do you get above it low enough so you don't go supersonic in the dive (even with throttle closed) but high enough so you don't get pinged cruising overhead - this is all assuming that you need to start overhead reasonably slowly so you don't get too fast in the dive (see above question 1).

[/b]

I die quite a lot doing this but...:

 I am able to dive over an enemy acked base's runway and straffe it getting no hits on me. You only need to change the firing solution of hte guns all the time (so dont stay straight or you will die...roll, pull, push...whatever will do the trick). That way I am able to fly just over their noses and still go out unscathed.

In a divebombing you are a VERY fast plane comming from avobe. Most times the ack is firing at other planes, other times isnt...but you will be a very very difficult target to hit in the dive. In the pullout dont stay straight, jink a bit. I VERY rarely I am hit doing this, and mostly in the pullout not in the dive. to dive bomb is like a dream compared with diving into acks to straffe  

 

If you have any sort of figures for what to expect airspeed wise in each phase of the attack that would be helpful in my understanding.

Well I do it by instinct (as nearly all in AH   ). But I start the dive at 200-250mph from some 12K with chopped throttle. So when I release bombs at 900-1000 feet I am not too fast.Of course I put my nose VERY fast on the target. If you need more altitude start from 15-16K You wont have too many problems because with chopped throttle the plane doesnt accelerate too much.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Andy Bush]

Hi Guys

The question of 'where do I aim to hit something with a bomb or rocket' is one that can only be answered by the AH folks.

The sim is programmed to award a hit or miss depending on release parameters. The problem for us is to know what these parameters are. What makes the situation kind of murky is that there is no certainty that the sim programming has anything to do with real world ballistics.

In my A2G series of articles, I explain how manual dive bombing, rocketry, and strafe weapons release settings are determined. Those of you that have read this info know that the procedures are far more that just using the TLAR (that looks about right) method.

But in WW2, many of these procedures were not used...for one thing, the gunsight depression setting was not adjustable by the pilot. Because of this, WW2 dive bombing was literally a 'hit or miss' situation. The pilots that got good at it developed a 'sight picture' for a given release altitude and then hoped for the best.

As a general rule, the steeper the dive angle, the lower the release altitude, and the slower the release airspeed, the smaller the miss distance error will be. That's why dive bombers had dive brakes...and that is why the A-10 was designed with ailerons that split into speed brakes when the pilot wanted to prevent his speed from building in a dive attack.

So here is a place for the AH guys to step in to help us.

Hey you AH guys!! What are the release parameters, where do we aim and what do we aim with to get a hit?!!

Andy

[Lizard3]

As to speed: I generally aim for at least 10k alt. before going in. If Im going relatively fast when over target, I'll zoom verticle, hammerhead, then put the piper on the target and release when I have a say 200+ airspeed. Pickle largest eggs first, or whatever you have in a pair(trying to manuever with only one egg out on the wing is difficult to say the least). I will usually accomplish this before I hit 5k. I then zoom again, when I reach 8k to 10k, I'll turn back for the second run. Repeat as necessary. When trying a jabo run from an angle less than verticle , I usually will wait until I reach a high speed before chopping throttle. The eggs will drop with more of a "flat" trajectory, and I will not have to "lead" the target as much. The verticle technique works for straffing as well. Squeeze off a burst, watch for impact, then adjust accordingly.  

[Dnil]

Dont use rudders during ur dive.  I also find in the jug to aim with the bottom of the site, not the reticle.  Put the bottom of the glass on the target.  I think bomb ballistics are sorely lacking, i.e. cant loft bomb with these things, bombs just drop straight down no matter how you drop them.

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Dnil
Maj. 900th Bloody Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[Ripsnort]

I never waste bombs on ack, I simply start shooting from Waaaay out, and walk the tracers in, break off, and live, easy to take out all acks at an airfield with one jug.

[-ammo-]

Hmmmm, Rip please show me how. I Have never had any luck straffing Acks and living at AH bases. I may get one and if lucky two, but  acquire damage or die.  Please explain here or Email me. I know eventually I will have this question asked in the TA

 

[Ripsnort]

Learned it from Zig, fire from long distance, until you see the reports on the ground,walk it in.. steeper the dive, more likely you'll survive, I got 7 of 8 (last one got me, lucky bastard) the other day while waiting on a few squaddies to bring a goon.

Actually, grab me or zig sometime in the TA, ride in the cockpit as an observer.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Sparks]

Thanks for all your replies guys - Ive been away from BBS for a few days so just reviewing everything. I will practice and report back.
<S>
Sparks