Author Topic: ki84 speed????  (Read 15958 times)

Offline FDutchmn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1114
ki84 speed????
« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2004, 08:17:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pyro
Top speed is 388, except for the fact that it's not making full power right now.  

The WEP issue is a confusing one.  Busa has been doing a lot of research for me over in Japan on the N1K and also the Ki-84.  It's not very clear-cut as the engine had various restrictions placed upon it at various times and the IJA and IJN did not treat the engines the same.  His research leaned toward the Ki-84 not making use of WEP while the N1K did, but again, it is not a clear-cut situation and is the source of much debate.


Pyro, I did the translation for Busa01... I am not a mechanic and didn't quite understand the physics/engineering behind it... You are right that there were certain restrictions placed on the operations of the engine, but I am not sure if that meant no WEP.  I will go over it again with him.  Perhaps I didn't do the translation right... come to think of it... I haven't answered his last email yet!  Sorry, been busy with RL.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
ki84 speed????
« Reply #91 on: November 01, 2004, 09:11:00 PM »
Well, I tried it online.

It is slow and seems to suffer from heavy controls at speed worse than the A6M does.  It cannot be used to dive on any enemy at all as you have no control after a moderate dive.  After a short dive there is no fighter in AH they will not easily escape it's guns.

I was never actually able to get into gun range of anything in the MA.  They all simply outran me.

Testing the guns offline against the drones they felt very good.  I like the guns.

The visibility from the cockpit was excelent.  Not quite as good as the P-51D or Fw190 series, but not to far behind.


In a 1941 environment it would be a good fighter.  In the 1945 MA it is sheer frusteration and utter crap I'm afraid.

I found that my expectation were wholly unrealistic I'm afraid.  I was hoping for a fighter a bit faster than the Mossie, but able to manuver with other fighters that I would enjoy using.  In the actuall event, the Ki-84 is inferior to the Mosquito in most ways, only being superior in low speed handling and visibility.  Contrary to what some snide people make think, I did not expect the Ki-84 to do anything like 363mph at sea level and 427mph at best altitude.  I just expected something a little better than this.

Unfortunately for me AH has now become (and has been for some time) a source of frusteration every time I play it.  It seems that the horde easily out runs the aircraft I like and when I am trying to kill an enemy, way too often they can simply leave at will.  The Mosquito was unable to be effective in that environment and the Ki-84 seems worse.

I still like air combat, but none of the MA superplanes draw me.  I don't want to fly the P-51D, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10, La-7 or Typhoon and yet it seems that without picking one of those the game is simply going to be an exercise in sheer frustration.

This makes me quite unhappy and I cannot think of a solution that I really find acceptable.  I don't want to quit, I want to find a way to make the game fun again, but I can't think of how to do so.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
ki84 speed????
« Reply #92 on: November 01, 2004, 09:19:54 PM »
If you could only read those pesky IL2/FB/AEP/PF gauges you would enjoy flying the Ki-84-1a there. Its a monster.

Ho-45/21 with water methanol. Its guns are lethal. It turns like dream, climbs like a love sick angle, accellerates like a bat out of hell and dives like an AH bomber pilot.

It's a shame... :p

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
ki84 speed????
« Reply #93 on: November 01, 2004, 09:29:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan
If you could only read those pesky IL2/FB/AEP/PF gauges you would enjoy flying the Ki-84-1a there. Its a monster.

Ho-45/21 with water methanol. Its guns are lethal. It turns like dream, climbs like a love sick angle, accellerates like a bat out of hell and dives like an AH bomber pilot.

It's a shame... :p

Actually I found it's guns pretty anemic unless I took the  Ki-84-Ic, which I felt bad about because that one never saw service.  Using the Ki-84-Ib I could just almost kill a single Me323 tranport.  With the Ki-84-Ia it was hopless.  With the Ki-84-Ic I'd kill it in a quarter second.

It seems that the gun model in IL-2 is way over generous to 30mm cannon, rating them about 50 times higher than a 20mm cannon.

The problem with Il-2 is that the AI is soooo boring to fight and it cheats.  OK, that's one problem.  Suffice it to say the IL-2 series has several really strong points for me and several game breaking flaws that render it all moot.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline RedTop

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5921
ki84 speed????
« Reply #94 on: November 01, 2004, 09:30:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Well, I tried it online.

It is slow and seems to suffer from heavy controls at speed worse than the A6M does.  It cannot be used to dive on any enemy at all as you have no control after a moderate dive.  After a short dive there is no fighter in AH they will not easily escape it's guns.

I was never actually able to get into gun range of anything in the MA.  They all simply outran me.

Testing the guns offline against the drones they felt very good.  I like the guns.

The visibility from the cockpit was excelent.  Not quite as good as the P-51D or Fw190 series, but not to far behind.


In a 1941 environment it would be a good fighter.  In the 1945 MA it is sheer frusteration and utter crap I'm afraid.

I found that my expectation were wholly unrealistic I'm afraid.  I was hoping for a fighter a bit faster than the Mossie, but able to manuver with other fighters that I would enjoy using.  In the actuall event, the Ki-84 is inferior to the Mosquito in most ways, only being superior in low speed handling and visibility.  Contrary to what some snide people make think, I did not expect the Ki-84 to do anything like 363mph at sea level and 427mph at best altitude.  I just expected something a little better than this.

Unfortunately for me AH has now become (and has been for some time) a source of frusteration every time I play it.  It seems that the horde easily out runs the aircraft I like and when I am trying to kill an enemy, way too often they can simply leave at will.  The Mosquito was unable to be effective in that environment and the Ki-84 seems worse.

I still like air combat, but none of the MA superplanes draw me.  I don't want to fly the P-51D, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10, La-7 or Typhoon and yet it seems that without picking one of those the game is simply going to be an exercise in sheer frustration.

This makes me quite unhappy and I cannot think of a solution that I really find acceptable.  I don't want to quit, I want to find a way to make the game fun again, but I can't think of how to do so.


Karnak ,

I understand your frustration to an extent. I have chosen my ride that is not the slowest , but certainly , by MA standards not the fastest by far. It is very frustating to have practically every plane in tha MA outrun you at will unless you have a substansial alt advantage.

I wish there was somthing I could suggest to you that would make it more fun , but I really have no idea. I haven't flown the KI-84 nor do I plan to at all. It has nothing to offer to me to pull me from my current plane.

Chin up man. I feel HTC is really trying and doing ALL they can to make the game the best they can. MA is a fast arena now. Early War planes are going to have to have an E state or simply chase everyone around like I do.  :lol

Best of Luck....:aok
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline oboe

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9772
ki84 speed????
« Reply #95 on: November 01, 2004, 09:49:57 PM »
Karnak,

You'll just have to start flying in the CT.   The plane matchups tend to be more balanced, and you don't usually have to contend with LA-7s and P-51s.    The Ki.84/Hellcat may be a decent matchup.

I'm disappointed too, if the Ki.84 we have modelled is a 1943 prototype that never really saw service.

Hopefully it'll get straightened out though.

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10166
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
ki84 speed????
« Reply #96 on: November 01, 2004, 09:52:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I don't want to fly the P-51D, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10, La-7 or Typhoon and yet it seems that without picking one of those the game is simply going to be an exercise in sheer frustration.

 I don't want to quit, I want to find a way to make the game fun again, but I can't think of how to do so.


Karnak,
I am looking for your reasoning why you feel you need a speedy airplane like the ones I qouted you on above? I seldom ever fly a P51 or Typhoon, and you never see me in the other 3.......

Do you feel like with out the speed you do not have an equal chance of being competitive?

Is there anyway I might be able to help you in anyway in regards to flying something besides one of the super duper fast late war planes.........

they are not all that, and speed is over rated.....
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10166
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
ki84 speed????
« Reply #97 on: November 01, 2004, 09:57:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by RedTop
I haven't flown the KI-84 nor do I plan to at all. It has nothing to offer to me to pull me from my current plane.
 


RedTop, I would suggest at least flying it a few sorties to see how it reacts / responds when in a fight with other planes and fly it and fight it against your favorite plane........this can  only increase your understanding of what the Ki-84 can and can not do and show you where you can maximize your fight against it......

I am not saying you need this...am only suggesting it to further your knowledge...
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline rod367th

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1320
ki84 speed????
« Reply #98 on: November 01, 2004, 10:11:20 PM »
http://www.tgplanes.com/planfile.asp?idplane=94


this site best at true specs ww2.

Offline humble

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6434
ki84 speed????
« Reply #99 on: November 01, 2004, 10:23:35 PM »
Karnak...I have to agree with TC here. I hope you'll take him up on his offer to work with you, he's a great stick. If your a knight I'll be happy to wing with you any time. I'm certainly not an uber stick but was in the top 300 fighter rankings flying the Ki-61 almost exclustively over 2+ weeks (just switched handle in early Oct to join AK's). Personally I feel very comfortable vs any plane in set with the Ki-61...solid all around plane...sure I have some clips I can post for you.

As for Ki-84 I dont entirely agree with you. It's certainly not a dominant plane however in its current (post patch) form its not half bad. Had a 5 kill and a 4 kill hop...think I'm 11 or 12 to 1 in it. Only death was when I got bounced while target fixated on a spitty. The biggest concern is the airlions...lost both trying to clear another knights six and had to ditch it....it certainly restricts the planes ability as an E fighter. All in all the Ki-61 is a superior MA fighter IMO but in a 1 vs 1 the additional power makes a co-e one on one a tougher fight for the Ki-61.

I've always been suprised you view the mossie as a true fighter...to me its a limited use toy with no real abilities as a fighter other than an awesome HO/front quarter kill shot ability. Personally the Ki-61/P-40E/F4u-1/C-205/109-G2/Yak-9U/La-5/P47-11 are all excellent MA planes. You simply need to find the one that fits your style best.

As for the Ki-84...as modeled its not a match for any of the top 5 MA rides. If the ENY was ~30 or so I'd probably be more inclined to fly it a bit more...be curious to see what the #'s for it are at end of tour.

"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."-Pres. Thomas Jefferson

Offline RedTop

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5921
ki84 speed????
« Reply #100 on: November 01, 2004, 10:38:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
RedTop, I would suggest at least flying it a few sorties to see how it reacts / responds when in a fight with other planes and fly it and fight it against your favorite plane........this can  only increase your understanding of what the Ki-84 can and can not do and show you where you can maximize your fight against it......

I am not saying you need this...am only suggesting it to further your knowledge...


Well TC...I may give it a ride in the DA. In the MA tho , I doubt it very much. I fly 1 plane pretty much 99.9 percent of the time. And , although I take my butt whoopins on a regular basis in my favorite ride I find that it is with out a doubt my favorite ride in the game bar none. It is my Favorite historic ride of WW2 as well.

Not to mention I'm in a squad that (supposed to) fly em. I am pretty much the only one that flies em all the time.

I appreciate the help and thoughts tho.

:aok
Original Member and Former C.O. 71 sqd. RAF Eagles

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
ki84 speed????
« Reply #101 on: November 01, 2004, 10:49:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Actually I found it's guns pretty anemic unless


I guess we have different experiences here as well. I shot down 7 in one sortie the other night. 3 p51s, 1 p40M, 2 jugs and a p38.

Landed upped again and killed 5 more.

12 kills in about 35 min.

AI is not he same as online, and it matters what you aim at and hit on the the aircraft in fb.

I upped an an A6m5 after that and killed a p40M then took what seemed like 1 .50 cal hit and lost elevator control and augered into the water.

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
ki84 speed????
« Reply #102 on: November 01, 2004, 11:00:10 PM »
I agree with humble.

 Karnak, when at online I stopped talking about this since you seemed so upset that you wouldn't listen to anything else, but I hope you would calm down a bit and try it out with an open mind.

 Even if the Hayate was modelled with its Ha-45-21 2000hp engine, the chances are that it would retain most of its characteristics as we see now. Now, in that case, would you still define the plane as 'crap'? I think not.

 It seems you've expected so much in the speed category, and seeing how AH2 has changed from AH1 in speed/gunnery realism, rightfully so. But still, you emphasize so much on it particularly with the Ki-84 that you fail to acknowledge its other strengths as it is.

 In a sense, under your definition the Mosquito would be a better 'fighter' than more than half of the fighter stock in AH2, but in reality it is not. There are many more things to what makes a plane great.

 In that sense, while I fully agree that the data set chosen was a big disappointment, the Ki-84 is a very potent plane when it comes to combat.

 Its basic handling at low-mid speed ranges is one of the best I've felt, and only at high speeds does it get heavy. Frankly, without much exaggeration it is easier to handle than even the Spitfire or the N1K2.

 Very stable with harsh inputs and constant E bleeds right upto under 200mph, and when the speed goes under that, you can start using flaps, which is another big plus. Once the combat flaps are engaged the plane feels as gentle as alike a P-38, that turns like a Spitfire. It could have been a fluke, but during combat testing(..well.. just playing in the MA...) I was surprised to see that I was constantly outturning Spit9s... and able to gain a very very good gun solution.

 The sheer excellency of the handling chracteristics itself is worth something - as per the experience of AH1 where Spit9s and N1K2s were so popular for their ease of handling.

 Ofcourse, much has changed with AH2 and it takes a fast plane to catch up the resident 'monsters'. And again, in that aspect I agree that its a disappointment. But all other traits are satisfactory.

 Now, Pyro has mentioned that the WEP issues are under debate and unclear. We have the previous past experience where the FM-2 was initially  removed of the WEP, and then got it back again after a while.

 If we can see a WEP system on the Ki-84, then I think it could be much more closer to the picture we had in mind. If it would allow it to develop about 20mph more speed at deck and about 15mph at alts.. then the Ki-84 would do about 344 at deck and 403 at alt.

 So lets try and see what we can do to get a WEP system installed on our Ki-84, instead of going on and on with general complaints about whats done already.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2004, 11:05:39 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Dead Man Flying

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6301
ki84 speed????
« Reply #103 on: November 01, 2004, 11:18:43 PM »
The Ki-84 feels fine to me.  It gets surprisingly stiff at high speeds, but man oh man can it rocket to those speeds.  Once it hits about 380ias in a dive, though, it doesn't like to get much faster.

The guns feel easy to aim, and the medium to slow speed handling is excellent.  I took the Ki-84 up against Drex's F6F in a scissoring fight, and it did just fine.  Against PTO opponents, it matches up quite well.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16330
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
ki84 speed????
« Reply #104 on: November 01, 2004, 11:41:43 PM »
So are the cannons supposed to be the same as the Ki61's or not?

Is it supposed to be as slow as the N1K, or not?

Were the combat flaps restrictions really limited to the small pre-prod. batch or not?
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you