Author Topic: ki84 speed????  (Read 15954 times)

Offline Charon

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #120 on: November 02, 2004, 04:46:28 PM »
Pyro, was the Wright Field test data TIAC (I've seen it suggested based on similarities to TIAC), or was that actual post war test data?

Charon

Offline Mitsu

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #121 on: November 02, 2004, 05:19:16 PM »
Pyro - thanks reply, but...still no wep and climb performance is gonna go down?

Offline busa

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #122 on: November 02, 2004, 05:28:16 PM »
Hello all.

N1K2-J is installing Homare21 also for the prototype plane and production plane.
But it is a thing in documents.
This engine is the performance of Homare12.
This fact is already reported.

It is written to the manual of Ki84 which IJA edited, and the manual of Ki84 which TAIC edited that the engine of Ki84 is the same as Homare12.
Both of data are submitted to Pyro and examined.

With the new book of Ki84 published in Japan, the production plane of Ki84 is written about a possibility of demonstrating a better performance.
However, with this book, it is not written that performance measurement was carried out by MP+350.
Readers can interpret MP as the ability to increase by installing Homare21.
And since Ki84 is installing Homare11, it has been written that it cannot increase to MP+350.
But it is not written before half a year that having operated by MP+350 is reported at this meeting.

Since this mysterious text existed, I said that it was under research.
In this report, I connected with the researcher and have got advice.

However, since I have not adjusted a schedule with him, I was not able to do investigation about this affair.
And I said that I reported this affair to Pyro later.

Thank you.

Offline Karnak

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #123 on: November 02, 2004, 05:39:52 PM »
Thanks for the information Busa.  That is interesting.  If you do meet with him it will be interesting to find out what he has uncovered.
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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #124 on: November 02, 2004, 05:52:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mitsu
The Ki-84's combat flap is very effective in "stall" fight.
I love to use it when fighting against Spit 9.

I think Spit5 still out-turn Ki84 tho. :D

Also I feel P-51D is much better than Ki-84 at med-high speed maneuverability.
It seems P-51D pilots using flaps at high speed and out-turn the Frank.


Around 3 AM this morning, INYO and I tested the Ki-84 head to head with the Spitfire Mk.V to determine which was better at turn fighting.

I give the advantage to the Spitfire. It accelerates faster, rolls better and turns a bit tighter (not much, but enough). Where the Ki-84 has a slight advantage is in the vertical and especially when the Spit overheats and runs out of WEP.

In terms of minimum turning circle, the Spit wins. But, part of the advantage stems from the Spits better handling at the limit. The Hayate suffers more from torque.

I never saw more than 379.5 mph after an 18 mile run at 21.5k. I saw speeds at or slightly above 330 on the deck (actually at 300 feet.)

I found E retention in the Spit was better than the Ki-84 as well.

What we have here is a radial powered, long ranging Japanese interpretation of the Spitfire V, without WEP restictions. It has better outward vision, but tends to shed control surfaces when speed gets up near 500 mph. At medium to high speeds, the Ki-84 cannot hang with the Spitfire due to control stiffening and the risk of breaking things under high G loading.

I was very impressed with the B-24J, which seems to the fighter pilot's heavy bomber. Unusually maneuverable once the bombs are gone. That could make a great scrum in the DA, a dozen light B-24s with a gunner manned nose turret only.... Lancasters play at their peril.   :)

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline busa

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #125 on: November 02, 2004, 06:27:36 PM »
Hello Karnak & all.

I have what you should be first told about.

In my translation software, English-Japanese translation cannot be performed not much well.
I may misunderstand your question.

I am seldom thinking the exhaust thrust effect as important in this report.
The reason is that it cannot find the data for verifying it.
I have calculated the exhaust thrust of Ha45 roughly.
But this figure cannot be contrasted with performance data.

The engine after the Ki84 prototype of No. 4 (or No. 5) did not demonstrate sufficient performance.
In Nakajima, the engine test was performed like every day.
It continued half a year.
And a good result was not obtained but the test was stopped.
And Ki84 became adoption suspension several months after.
The reason is because MP cannot increase to +350.
And engine will be operated with new restriction.
And Ki84 was adopted.
Exhaust thrust equipment was equipped these days.
The data of a performance better than the official performance measured on and after these days have not been discovered.
There were more inferior data.
However, I think that this is not a formal performance.
However, there is a measurement result which Mitsu presented and which was very excellent.
I also consider this data that it is difficult to treat similarly to a formal performance.
I think that it is our future subject.

Controllability of Ki84.

Ki84 redesigned a plan to install 2000H.P. engine in Ki44.
Ki84 weakened effectiveness of an elevator to the limit, and it was designed so that it might battle at high speed.
A tail gear was not grounded under the influence of downwash of a flap by the prototype model at the time of landing. Of course, the flap, the horizontal stabilizer, and the elevator were improved. But, it did not solve.
It is because it was judged that it was not useful for Ki84 to solve it.
The pilot said that he could not raise a nose of an airplane even if it pulls a stick at a low speed.
In order to accelerate at combat speed, even if it pushed the stick, it was said that a nose of an airplane could be lowered only about 20 degrees.
Clearly, the Controllability which is different in Ki43 or Ki44 was able to be given.
"The test pilots of Nakajima and IJA thought that Ki84 should equip a control system with the elevator and rudder of high control force,And aileron of low control force."
It was the controllability similar to the foreign airplane. (The result was the middle grade of foreign airplanes and IJA airplanes. )
"Directional stability at the high speed was made so good that it is imbalanced at the time of turn, it raised shooting accuracy. (The vertical stabilizer with low height had a problem in Ki44. However, it is unknown whether there was any problem by Ki84.)"
As compared with more heavily built with the same engine, the@small propeller has not offered the outstanding climbing performance.
IJA wanted to make the airplane similar to Fw190A5.
Though it was regrettable, since the thrust was insufficient, Fw190A8 was resembled.
But, the IJA was able to get what they wanted.

Though regrettable, I cannot explain why Roll Rate of Ki84 is not excellent.
We think that Roll Rate of N1K2-J is not good, either.

I expect that Pyro answers.

Thank you for reading my poor English.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 06:46:15 PM by busa »

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #126 on: November 02, 2004, 06:40:48 PM »
Thanks Busa.

I understood what you were saying.

It is odd that Nakajima wanted low stick forces on the ailerons and in Aces High there are very heavy stick forces on the ailerons.
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Offline Mitsu

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #127 on: November 02, 2004, 06:43:32 PM »
There is good discussion now... :)
to busa and all.

Let's more discuss and feedback about Ki-84 and other planes without bias...
We can get a chance of tweaking FM from Pyro.

I hope these discussions always help Aces High's vehicles development.

Offline Wotan

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #128 on: November 02, 2004, 06:45:25 PM »
There's a British test of the ki-84 vs. Seafire. I haven't seen the document but its available at PRO.

From what others who have seen the document report:

Quote
Unfortunately Frank was sick, and couldn't get max power rendering the whole thing less than useful. The RN Lt wasn't too worried by Frank's abilities though, and estimated that with the -21 engine it could do 330mph at s/l, 400 at 20k and 380 at 30k.

It stalled at 109mph clean, which will serve to place it in terms of turning ability. The Seafire out-turned the Frank easily at 5,000ft 160mph. Combat flaps made little improvement.

 Speed at 20,000 with 2900rpm 250 boost was 218kt IAS, which is around 350 mph true, but this may have been paced by what the Seafire(NN610, F III) could do. Above this power the CSU failed.

From my notes...
"Frank rolled 25% better than Seafire."
"Frank's controls do not stiffen like other Japanese a/c but it is still inferior at high speed manoeuvre."


Remeber the condition of the Ki-84 in the above was in very poor shape.

The TAIC numbers for the Ki-84 are estimates. AFAIK the Wright Patterson tests, all though sited in several books, has not been rediscovered. Of course that test was with 100 octane fule which I have read was used to achieve similiar power settings as a Ha-45/21 with water methonal.

However, there are several pilot accounts that support or at least do not rule out a Ki-84 running at 420+.

For instance:

Quote
Next best source might be a Type 4 pilot. W.O. Yukio Nakamura flew the Type 4 fighter in Japan and then in combat in the Philippines. He was captured by the Americans and interrogated (he was deemed "fairly reliable") and gave detailed information on the Type 4 fighter. According to Nakamura the aircraft's max speed was 700 kph true airspeed. That comes out to about 434 mph.


From what I have read the 'exhaust stacks'  if the thrust is efficiently ported, is equivalent to approximately 10% in lbs of the INDICATED HP.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #129 on: November 02, 2004, 08:47:55 PM »
This is info from "Combat Aircraft of WWII".  I think I trust Busa's research more than published data from over 30 years after the war, but here it is.

Data
 
Origin:
Nakajima Hikoki KK  Also built by Mansyu Hikoki Seizo KK and (3 Ki-106) Tachikawa Hikoki KK
 
Type:
Single-seat interceptor and fighter-bomber
 
Span:
36' 11" (11.238 metres)Length: 32' 7" (9.92 metres)Height: 11' 1" (3.385 metres)
 
Engines:
In all production models - One 1,900 hp Nakajima Homare Ha-45 Model 11 18-cylinder two-row radial
 
Armament:
(Ki-84-1a)
2 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon in wings, each with 150 rounds
2 x 12.7mm Type 103 machine-guns in upper fuselage, each with 350 rounds
(Ki-84-Ib)
4 x 20mm Ho-5 cannon (2 in wings, 2 in fuselage) each with 150 rounds
(Ki-84-Ic)
2 x 30 mm Ho-105 cannon in wings,  2 x 20 mm Ho-5 cannon in fuselage
(all models)
Two racks under outer wings for bombs or fuel tanks up to 250 kg (550 lbs) each
 
Performance:
Maximum speed 388 mph (624 km/hour) /  Initial climb (typical) 3.600 feet (1,100 metres) per minute
Service ceiling 34,450 (10,500 metres)
Range on internal fuel 1,025 miles (1,650 kilometres)
Range with 98-gallon drop tanks 1,815 miles (2,920 kilometres)

Offline Kaz

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #130 on: November 02, 2004, 09:40:00 PM »
The debate goes on here

This one stood out. Whether or not it is true I do not know.
It gives reference to a book but again I do not know if the information in it is reliable.
MUSTANG AND THUNDERBOLT ACES OF THE PACIFIC AND CBI by Osprey

Looks like elevator/aileron/rudder (particularly elevator & aileron) effectiveness may need some tweaking if Pyro finds the information provided by busa to be true.

Quote
A tail gear was not grounded under the influence of downwash of a flap by the prototype model at the time of landing. Of course, the flap, the horizontal stabilizer, and the elevator were improved. But, it did not solve.
It is because it was judged that it was not useful for Ki84 to solve it.The pilot said that he could not raise a nose of an airplane even if it pulls a stick at a low speed.


From this I interpret that it was difficult to get the tail down soon after touchdown.

Quote
"Directional stability at the high speed was made so good that it is imbalanced at the time of turn, it raised shooting accuracy. (The vertical stabilizer with low height had a problem in Ki44. However, it is unknown whether there was any problem by Ki84.)"
As compared with more heavily built with the same engine, the@small propeller has not offered the outstanding climbing performance.
IJA wanted to make the airplane similar to Fw190A5.
Though it was regrettable, since the thrust was insufficient, Fw190A8 was resembled.
But, the IJA was able to get what they wanted.


I interpret this to mean that the roll rate was similar to the Fw190A8 at high speed (and perhaps low speed) and the climbing performance was also similar to the Fw190A8.

Correct me if I'm wrong :)
« Last Edit: November 02, 2004, 10:00:10 PM by Kaz »

Offline Kweassa

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #131 on: November 02, 2004, 10:58:54 PM »
Here's my take on what Busa's trying to say:


Quote
Ki84 redesigned a plan to install 2000H.P. engine in Ki44.
Ki84 weakened effectiveness of an elevator to the limit, and it was designed so that it might battle at high speed.


 "Ki-84 was essentially a redesign of an original plan which the Ki-44 was to be fitted with a 2000hp engine.  With consideration to combat at higher speeds, the Ki-84 elevator efficiency(=turning capability) was given less emphasis than before(as compared to aileron efficiency)."


Quote
A tail gear was not grounded under the influence of downwash of a flap by the prototype model at the time of landing. Of course, the flap, the horizontal stabilizer, and the elevator were improved. But, it did not solve.

It is because it was judged that it was not useful for Ki84 to solve it.


 "The prototype had problems with the tail gear not extending properly during landings. The reason was traced back to the influence of the downwash casued by flaps in landing position. While subsequentially the design of the flaps, horizontal stabs and elevators were enhanced, the tail gear problem was never really solved. It is probably because there were other priorities and redesigning the whole rear-end to solve this problem was out of the question."


Quote
The pilot said that he could not raise a nose of an airplane even if it pulls a stick at a low speed.
In order to accelerate at combat speed, even if it pushed the stick, it was said that a nose of an airplane could be lowered only about 20 degrees. Clearly, the Controllability which is different in Ki43 or Ki44 was able to be given.


 "The elevator efficiency (compared to other JP planes) was reduced to the point that a slight pull of the stick would not effect the pitch of the plane at low speeds. It is said that while the plane was accelerated to combat speed the pilot pushing slightly on the stick would achieve only 20 degrees lower pitch. Clearly, this kind of elevator response was very different from the Ki-43 or the Ki-44."


Quote
The test pilots of Nakajima and IJA thought that Ki84 should equip a control system with the elevator and rudder of high control force,And aileron of low control force. It was the controllability similar to the foreign airplane. (The result was the middle grade of foreign airplanes and IJA airplanes. )


 "The test pilots of Nakajima Aviation and IJAAF retained opinions that the Ki-84 should emphasize in light controls with the ailerons, and heavy controls with the elevators, as per the contemporary example of the fighters of the other major combatants of the war. The result achieved was at a somewhat middle point between a typical Japanese fighter and "foreign" fighters."


Quote
Directional stability at the high speed was made so good that it is imbalanced at the time of turn, it raised shooting accuracy. (The vertical stabilizer with low height had a problem in Ki44. However, it is unknown whether there was any problem by Ki84.)


 "Directional stability at high speeds were greatly improved, almost causing over correction, which greatly helped improving shooting accuracy and gaining gun solution. (There were problems reported with the Ki-44 due to its short vertical stabs, but there is no reference as to if such was also the case with the Ki-84)"


Quote
As compared with more heavily built with the same engine, the@small propeller has not offered the outstanding climbing performance.


 "When compared with the more heavily built fighters using the same engine such as the C6N or the N1K2-J, the short propellers installed on the Ki-84 resulted in not much of an increase in climbing performance(despite the Ki-84 was more lighly built). "


Quote
IJA wanted to make the airplane similar to Fw190A5.
Though it was regrettable, since the thrust was insufficient, Fw190A8 was resembled.
But, the IJA was able to get what they wanted.


 "In a summary, the IJAAF intended to make a plane resembling something like an AH Fw190A-5, but the insufficient thrust has caused it to be somewhat like the AH Fw190A-8. However, all in all, the IJAAF was generally pleased with what they've achieved."


Quote
Though regrettable, I cannot explain why Roll Rate of Ki84 is not excellent.
We think that Roll Rate of N1K2-J is not good, either.


 "Unfortuately, I cannot explain why the Ki-84 modelled in AH2 does not have excellent roll rate. In our opinion, we also think the roll rate of the AH2 N1K2-J is too low."

Offline TimRas

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #132 on: November 03, 2004, 01:12:26 AM »
WTG Busa. This is very interesting to read.

Offline Pyro

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #133 on: November 03, 2004, 08:15:08 AM »
Going back to the speed issue.  The speed as modeled is the official performance taken from a translated Ki-84 manual.  Now I think the point of confusion over the official specs is because of the fact that the top speed was 624 kph, which happens to be the same top speed that is cited in the test of a prototype.  So the assumption was that the official performance was simply the results of the early prototype test and that production numbers should be higher because of improvements such as better exhaust stacks and perhaps some aerodynamic refinements.  However, this theory fell apart when Busa's research found that the prototype's top speed of 624 kph was reached using +350mm/3000 RPM.  The 624 kph in the official performance was reached using +250mm/2900 RPM, the military power limit used in production Ki-84s.  So in fact, this does show that some improvements were made as the production version reached the same speed as the prototype at a lower power setting.  It's just that the production models were derated to the lower setting, so the improvements were not seen in the top speed figure.

Offline Charon

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ki84 speed????
« Reply #134 on: November 03, 2004, 08:42:00 AM »
Thanks Pyro. That clears things up if the manual figure is representative of the majority of the production run and service life. I personally have no problem with the Ki-84 at 388/324  if that was the common perfromance encountered in RL. This attention to detail with the flight models is frankly my main attraction to AH.

Charon
« Last Edit: November 03, 2004, 08:44:08 AM by Charon »