Reversals

[BaneX]

Ok here's my question for you trainers. I love flight sims, but have never actually gotten to learning the mechanics of most flight maneuvers i.e. hi yo-yo, lo yo-yo displacement roll and such.

Now I've seen several planes go vertical and then turn on their tails in one spot so to speak. Now I've tried this with rudde but I only succeed in rolling over. Should I be using opposite aileron in a maneuver like this?

BTW I fly the 51 almost exclusively  

Now before you go explaining all the intricacies understand I don't know half the terms I should and most of the explanations I've seen for the maneuvers are greek to me.. so PLEASE put it in laymans terms if you could or send me film of various manuevers with an email describing what's being down so I can see what it looks like and have an idea if I'm doing it right.

Thanks all.. for helping to make me more dangerous than my above average gunnery makes me  


Bane
13th TAS

[terracota]

maybe they try some kind of oblique turn pulling very hard on stick, I never try this before in my dhog, looks like a hard E burner maneuver ,I think this is some kind of angles tactic to very tigth turning figthers, well maybe Im wrong  

[BaneX]

I would normally think the same thing but I've seen several p47s do this and I didn't think they were all that good at turning though I'm could very easily be wrong as I've never studied flight characteristics of aircraft.


Bane

[terracota]

any one that makes that kind of reversal can help?  

[flakbait]

I do vertical snap-rolls to come around quick on a target. Ask Jekyll, he's seen me do it several times. The trick is it requires an aircraft with HELLA rudder authority at low speeds. Try it in a P-51 and you'll do some lazy roll, while a Yak or 109 will pop around at unreal speed. Since it is a vert snap-roll you can control how much you rotate. From 45º or 90º all the way up to 180º, then pull it down and out to reverse on his six. If he's E fighting you, odds are you'll come out at the bottom with the same speed you had going in. Plus you should, if done right, come out at the same alt you started at. Only thing you can do faster is a lag displacement roll, but that burns a little alt.

Here's what you do. Do a real gradual zoom climb at about 20º until your speed hits 300, then go vertical. Once there, pull back slightly on the stick and start rolling. When you start rolling, give the rudder a HARD kick and you'll snap-roll. Hold the rudder a little longer and you'll pop around more. I describe it as a wrist snap, since that's what you're really doing. Let's say you want to do this to the right. Pull it vertical, pull back slightly on the stick, roll right a tad, and jab the rudder HARD right for a quick second. You'll vertically snap-roll the aircraft to the right. Hold the rudder jab longer and you'll rotate more.

SA Films I shot of myself and another pilot. He's in a N1K, I'm driving a Yak. Several times you'll see me pop around in that vertical snap-roll. I've been known to call it a ratchet turn, and it really does work. But it won't work in a P-51 since it doesn't have enough low-speed rudder authority. In short: at low speeds the rudder doesn't bite the air enough to pull something like this off. A 109 has a rudder that's just barely large enough to do this. A Yak, obviously, can pull this trick day in and day out. It can be done in the Fw-190, but I wouldn't suggest it. Unless you practice constantly to get it right you'll do the same thing in a 190 you're doing in that Pony. Lazy rolls.

P.S. Unless you've got at least 210mph of speed don't even try this as NO aircraft has enough rudder bite at such low speed.


------------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
Whattaya mean I can't kill em? Why the hell not?!
   

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 12-01-2000).]

[Monte99]

Sounds like you're talking about a hammerhead, where you pull up near vertical and kick the tail around with rudder just before the stall -- voila! Instant reversal. I've never been able to do one convincingly in any combat sim, but admittedly I haven't yet tried in AH ...

[SKurj]

Try a little aileron at the same time as you hit hard rudder, in the direction you want to fall.

AKSKurj

[Lephturn]

You mentioned you fly the 51, so that is a part of the mystery.

Some planes like the 38 and the Spit handle well at very low speeds, and it lets them do maneuvers like hammerheads, wing-overs, and such that are much more difficult in other planes.  The Pony's wing particularly is designed for high-speed flight, and does not perform well in very low-speed flight regimes.  So yes, if you are flying a pony, you will see other planes do low-speed maneuvers, ususally at the top of vertical moves, that you can not possibly follow.

The bottom line is this.  The P51 is designed to fly fast.  If you drop below about 250 Mph in the Pony you are going to be out-performed by most other planes.  In the Pony speed is life.  Keep the pony up around 300 Mph and very little will touch you.  Drop below 200 Mph and you had better be a damn good pilot because the other planes will have the advantage.

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[54Ed]

Like others said, sounds like you are talking about a hammerhead.  Like Monte, I've never had a whole lot of success doing the hammerhead in WWII sims.  Like Lep says, it also has to do with the model of plane you are in.  

In a real-life plane, you fly a HH like this:  pull vertical with lots of speed and about a 3G initial pull.  Bleed speed until almost at 0 mph but not quite, then kick rull rudder to pivot sideways (yaw) until you are pointed downward.  Must give full opposite aileron and some forward elevator to counteract torque and gyro proc.  Done right, you appear to hang in one spot while you pivot 180 degrees.  Feels that way too.  

[BaneX]

 

Keep the pony up around 300 Mph and very little will touch you.

Nothing but dweeb C's, niki's and most other uber cannon planes  


Bane
13th TAS

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by BaneX:
Now I've seen several planes go vertical and then turn on their tails in one spot so to speak. Now I've tried this with rudde but I only succeed in rolling over. Should I be using opposite aileron in a maneuver like this?

I do a similar move with the 51 Bane but its really nothing more than an oblique (VERY oblique) loop.  I pull the 51 into a very steep climb and then as Im approaching the stall I engage one notch flaps and try to pull the nose back over using nothing more than elevator and aileron to keep the wings level.

Its a great move when you have a good E advantage against your opponent since if you catch him below you as you loop over, you can simply roll your plane to follow any break the opponent may make.

-DIng

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by BaneX:

Nothing but dweeb C's, niki's and most other uber cannon planes  


Bane
13th TAS

With all due respect, I flew the P51 exclusively on Sunday morning, after a 10-1 K/D Ratio, I find the P51 to be very easy to fly and LIVE in..."When one can engage, and disengage at will, 50% of the battle is won"

OTOH, flying the Hog will get you dead alot due to the fact that you can't just run away when things go wrong, you have to turn and fight.

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
Some planes like the 38 and the Spit handle well at very low speeds, and it lets them do maneuvers like hammerheads, wing-overs, and such that are much more difficult in other planes.  The Pony's wing particularly is designed for high-speed flight, and does not perform well in very low-speed flight regimes.  So yes, if you are flying a pony, you will see other planes do low-speed maneuvers, ususally at the top of vertical moves, that you can not possibly follow.

Lephturn is right here.  The pony is an E fighter and needs to use E fighting tactics to stay competitive.  First your SA needs to be top notch so you can effectively estimate the E state of your opponent.  Always strive to either be higher than the enemy or have a nice head of steam saved up when you enter the fite.

Use alot of verticle moves on your opponent.  When you dive down on a lower spits 6, dont try to follow his break.  Instead, as soon as you see the break, pull up into a climb and roll 45 degrees in the direction of the spits bank.  Watch the spit over the banked wing and when the break turn is complete, roll back onto the tail of your enemy.

Also as stated in another post, I like to use the oblique loop to rope an enemy.  I get an enemy to follow on my 6 (knowing I have the E advantage) and zoom into an 80 deg climb watching him out the back.  If I see his distance falling off, I gently loop over with a bit of flap and come back down hopefully to catch him while hes floundering in the middle of a stall.

Unless I have alot of E, I wont usually follow a turner thru his break but with lo yoyo's I can occasionally catch a spit.

-Ding

[BaneX]

Ripsnort  

Not saying 51 isnt an easy plane to fly.. just seems that the things that kill me easily even when I'm movin at 350 or 400 plus with a 4 or 5k adv are the 1c's, tiffies and such going vertical just to get wthin 1k of me firing a quick shot and removing my tail  


Bane

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by BaneX:
Ripsnort  

Not saying 51 isnt an easy plane to fly.. just seems that the things that kill me easily even when I'm movin at 350 or 400 plus with a 4 or 5k adv are the 1c's, tiffies and such going vertical just to get wthin 1k of me firing a quick shot and removing my tail  


Bane

Where are they starting from?  Those Hispanos are deadly but they usually can be avoided.  I find that jinks out of plane which force the enemy to further maneuver to get a shot work amazingly well.  If you see them cashing in what E they got to get a shot, you cash in your E as well by going into a climb.  Make sure you jink when in their range and watch them to see when they begin to lose flight and begin their dive to regain E.  Thats the moment you then dive back into them.

-Ding

PS...maybe if you can give a situation which particularly troubles you some of us can reply on how we deal with that situation.