Author Topic: What do you think cost Bush the election?  (Read 948 times)

Offline TweetyBird

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« on: November 02, 2004, 05:30:27 PM »
Before all the morning shows start trudging over it, what do you think cost Bush the election? I sure hope that OBL tape had nothing to do with it.

I think the strategy of stating "hey with me, you know where I stand" or "what you see is what you get"  didn't work very well. It almost invoked an idea of of stagnancy. I do think a lot of Kerry voters took a chance. They are not sure what type of President he will be, but it seems they risked it as opposed to 4 more years of the same thing.

Offline ASTAC

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2004, 05:33:52 PM »
Awful confident aren't you? Lets see how it turns out before we start debating on why someone lost.
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Offline Gunslinger

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2004, 05:48:21 PM »
If he does lose it's cause the dems. out "hated" him.  I allways try and look at things in an unbiased way but the dems this year have been truely dispicable.

Bush Campaign HQs being ransacked

Signs being stolen

Today a parkinglot of republican polsters had their tires slashed (i wonder who did that)

Kerry is a third rate canidate who has yet to take ONE single position on some really important issues yet he gets spun up as the next best thing since sliced bread after only being a blip on the screen for 20 years in the senate!

The war in Iraq has been WAY too politicised.  If Kerry wins things will not change there and his opponents will be calling for his head as well.  It will be Nam all over again....war lost at home...not on the battlefield.

If you look at the economy....its not in the tank at all but all I hear is "more jobs than hoover blah blah blah"

I definatly think the democratic media machine came out guns blazin this year (missing explosives wich was news back in april but suddenly becomes a top issue for a week comes to mind)

Thats just the way I see it though.

Offline TweetyBird

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2004, 05:49:33 PM »
Perhaps, but as was alluded to in Slate's explanation of why it was showing the exit polls, the news anchors of the "liberal media" are grinning like cheshire cats. They know something.

Offline MrLars

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Re: What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2004, 05:51:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Before all the morning shows start trudging over it, what do you think cost Bush the election? I sure hope that OBL tape had nothing to do with it.
B]


IMO, it was his acting like he had a voter mandate and his marginalizing and demonizing the left turned many away from his party.

I think the real turning poiint was the first debate though, he presented himself as the arrogant dullard he realy is....IMO.

Offline MrLars

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2004, 05:53:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
If he does lose it's cause the dems. out "hated" him.  I allways try and look at things in an unbiased way but the dems this year have been truely dispicable.

Bush Campaign HQs being ransacked

Signs being stolen

Today a parkinglot of republican polsters had their tires slashed (i wonder who did that)

Kerry is a third rate canidate who has yet to take ONE single position on some really important issues yet he gets spun up as the next best thing since sliced bread after only being a blip on the screen for 20 years in the senate!

The war in Iraq has been WAY too politicised.  If Kerry wins things will not change there and his opponents will be calling for his head as well.  It will be Nam all over again....war lost at home...not on the battlefield.

If you look at the economy....its not in the tank at all but all I hear is "more jobs than hoover blah blah blah"

I definatly think the democratic media machine came out guns blazin this year (missing explosives wich was news back in april but suddenly becomes a top issue for a week comes to mind)

Thats just the way I see it though.


Just like Bush, it's everybody elses fault...huh?

Offline Fruda

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2004, 05:53:40 PM »
If he loses the election, it will be because of himself.

If he somehow wins it, it will be because of all the, shall we say, "lesser-educated" people who think he's a god.

Offline Gunslinger

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Re: Re: What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2004, 05:55:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrLars

I think the real turning poiint was the first debate though, he presented himself as the arrogant dullard he realy is....IMO.


I have to agree with you there.  That was the down turn that he didn't quite recover from.

Offline SaburoS

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Re: What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2004, 05:56:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Before all the morning shows start trudging over it, what do you think cost Bush the election? I sure hope that OBL tape had nothing to do with it.

I think the strategy of stating "hey with me, you know where I stand" or "what you see is what you get"  didn't work very well. It almost invoked an idea of of stagnancy. I do think a lot of Kerry voters took a chance. They are not sure what type of President he will be, but it seems they risked it as opposed to 4 more years of the same thing.


Failure with Iraq and his failure to admit it so. His debates with Kerry.
Make no mistake that Kerry is not going to be the great answer. He's got an uphill battle with both the Congress and the Senate being Republican controlled.
This is a referendum against Bush.
This is speculation on my part. We'll know more by tomorrow.



















KERRY WINS!!!  :D :D :D :p :p :p
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Offline Scootter

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2004, 06:07:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TweetyBird
Perhaps, but as was alluded to in Slate's explanation of why it was showing the exit polls, the news anchors of the "liberal media" are grinning like cheshire cats. They know something.


Yea, I remember Tom B of NBC last elect. with his grin  "we predict the state of Florida to go Gore.....no wait Bush..... no wait Gore".....after midnight..... well its too close to call (grin was gone). Yea they know something?!!:rolleyes:

Offline GtoRA2

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2004, 06:12:08 PM »
If he loses it will be because he took his base for granted.


He pushed to mush garbage like the medicare bill, spending to much, and not protecting gun rights.


Not to mention being a hard core liberal were the border is concerned.


Also prolly for being tooo religious, not all conservitives are christians.

Still he may win, the polls are not closed.

Offline DREDIOCK

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2004, 06:29:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fruda
If he loses the election, it will be because of himself.

If he somehow wins it, it will be because of all the, shall we say, "lesser-educated" people who think he's a god.



Dont see him as a God. Dont even particularly like him.

But I've educated myself plenty on this election.
And have tried to do so on an impartial  basis simply because I dont like either one

Unlike what many people have.

The conclusions I have drawn are.

Bottom line is no matter what way you slice it Kerrys economical numbers do not add up especially when you try to factor in his bogus health plan and imported drugs.

His voting record on defense is nothing short of pathetic.

Both is and Edwards attendance records arent exactly the best. Actually the only one thats worse then Edwards was man in his 90's and in ill health.

Dunno bout your job but anyone elses jobs I know if you have an attendance record that bad you get fired, not promoted.

Kerrys foreign policy is at best, unstable and he is indecisive.

But all that aside I see  most people voting for Kerry not voting on facts, but rhetoric.  95% of which is either untrue, innaccurate, overstated, or Kerry is himself just as guilty of supporting himself.

By the same token I see alot of people voting for Bush based on rhetoric alone. Just to a lesser degree

 then you have those who would Vote for Kerry or Bush
Simply because he belongs to "their party"

Which IMO is utterly mindless no matter which way your voting. But braindead people do braindead things.

If Bush looses this election, it will be because he himself relied on rhetoric rather then challenging Kerry on his claims and his so called "plans"

If Kerry looses it will be because he is seen as nothing more then an opportunist and trying to be all things to all people by taking 14 different positions on the same subject.


Oddly enough if Kerry wins it will be because of those very same reasons

IF Bush wins it will be not so much because people like him. But they see him as a person that you know where he stands. Even if you disagree.

Im not predicting either way

because it could go either way.

 In the end we all loose cause both these jokes of parties keep feeding us one lamer after another, And Both parties have the country highjacked to the point where unless you have Ross Perot type money no 3rd party even stands a fair chance even if they do come up with someone decent
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Offline Silat

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2004, 07:24:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
His voting record on defense is nothing short of pathetic.



Dred you really need to check the facts. His defense record is fine.

Summary


 http://www.factcheck.org/archive.html

Bush ads released April 26 recycle some distortions of Kerry's voting record on military hardware. We've de-bunked these half-truths before but the Bush campaign persists.

The ads -- many targeted to specific states -- repeat the claim that Kerry opposed a list of mainstream weapons including Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Apache helicopters, and also repeat the claim that he voted against body armor for frontline troops in Iraq. In fact, Kerry voted against a few large Pentagon money bills, of which Bradleys, Apaches and body armor were small parts, but not against those items specifically.


Analysis


 

On April 26 the Bush campaign released a total of 10 ads, all repeating claims that Kerry opposed a list of mainstream military hardware "vital to winning the war on terror."

Bush Ad: National Version

"Weapons"

Bush: I’m George W. Bush and I approve this message.

Announcer: As our troops defend America in the War on Terror, they must have what it takes to win. Yet, John Kerry has repeatedly opposed weapons vital to winning the War on Terror: Bradley Fighting Vehicles, Patriot Missiles, B-2 Stealth Bombers, F-18 Fighter Jets and more.

Kerry even voted against body armor for our troops on the front line of the War on Terror. John Kerry’s record on national security: Troubling.
 
Misleading Claims

The claims are misleading, as we've pointed out before in articles we posted on Feb. 26 and March 16. The Bush campaign bases its claim mainly on Kerry's votes against overall Pentagon money bills in 1990, 1995 and 1996, but these were not votes against specific weapons. And in fact, Kerry voted for Pentagon authorization bills in 16 of the 19 years he's been in the Senate. So even by the Bush campaign's twisted logic, Kerry should -- on balance -- be called a supporter of the "vital" weapons, more so than an opponent.

The claim that Kerry voted against body armor is based similarly on Kerry's vote last year against an $87 billion emergency supplemental appropriation bill to finance military operations and reconstruction efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. It included $300 million for the latest, ceramic-plate type of body armor for troops who had been sent to war without it. The body-armor funds amounted to about 1/3 of one percent of the total.

Missing Context

It is true that when Kerry first ran for the Senate in 1984 he did call specifically for canceling the AH-64 Apache helicopter, but once elected he opposed mainly such strategic weapons as Trident nuclear missiles and space-based anti-ballistic systems. And Richard Cheney himself, who is now Vice President but who then was Secretary of Defense, also proposed canceling the Apache helicopter program five years after Kerry did. As Cheney told the House Armed Services Committee on Aug. 13, 1989:

Cheney: The Army, as I indicated in my earlier testimony, recommended to me that we keep a robust Apache helicopter program going forward, AH-64; . . . I forced the Army to make choices. I said, "You can't have all three. We don't have the money for all three." So I recommended that we cancel the AH-64 program two years out. That would save $1.6 billion in procurement and $200 million in spares over the next five years.

Two years later Cheney's Pentagon budget also proposed elimination of further production of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle as well. It was among 81 Pentagon programs targeted for termination, including the F-14 and F-16 aircraft. "Cheney decided the military already has enough of these weapons," the Boston Globe reported at the time.

Does that make Cheney an opponent of "weapons vital to winning the war on terror?" Of course not. But by the Bush campaign's logic, Cheney himself would be vulnerable to just such a charge, and so would Bush's father, who was president at the time.

McCain Defends Kerry, Criticizes "Bitter" Rhetoric

Kerry's voting record on military spending was defended March 18 by Republican Sen. John McCain. He said on CBS's "The Early Show:"

McCain: No, I do not believe that he is, quote, weak on defense. He's responsible for his voting record, as we are all responsible for our records, and he'll have to explain it. But, no, I do not believe that he is necessarily weak on defense.


McCain also criticized "bitter and partisan" attacks by both sides, saying,  " This kind of rhetoric, I think, is not helpful in educating and helping the American people make a choice."

  Bush Ad: State Version

"Arizona Weapons"

Bush:  I’m George W. Bush and I approve this message.

Announcer: As our troops defend

America in the War on Terror, they must have what it takes to win. Yet, John Kerry has repeatedly opposed weapons vital to winning the War on Terror:  Apache Helicopters, Tomahawk Cruise Missiles, and components of F-18 Fighter Jets all built here in Arizona.

Kerry even voted against body armor for our troops on the front line of the War on Terror. John Kerry’s record on national security:  Troubling.
 
McCain is heading Bush's re-election efforts in Arizona. And speaking of Arizona, it was among nine states targeted by different versions of the same Bush ad.

Targeting Arizona

The state ads made mention of specific weapons -- supposedly opposed by Kerry -- manufactured in those states. The Arizona version mentioned Apache helicopters, Tomahawk cruise missiles and F-18 aircraft "all built here in Arizona."

The other ads were aimed at Arkansas, Florida, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, New Hampshire, Ohio and Pennsylvania. All added  a similar pork-barrel appeal to the basic attack on Kerry for  undermining the "war on terror." And all gave an equally false impression of Kerry's actual voting record.
+Silat
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Offline DREDIOCK

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2004, 07:31:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Silat
Dred you really need to check the facts. His defense record is fine.

 


I have checked the facts. several times and extensively.

I stand by my words.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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What do you think cost Bush the election?
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2004, 07:36:23 PM »
Yanno whats amusing though.

My wife was arguing with my brother in law last night trying to throw out facts that even the Kerry supporters here would dissagree with.

My wife mentioned something about getting info off  the internet.

He told her and I quote

"the internet is nothing more then a right wing conspiracy"

He also claimed I had her brainwashed.

Pretty neat trick considering she decided on Bush well before I did.

And even if I were to brainwash her on something my first choice sure as hell wouldnt be this election.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty