Bogus....

[humble]

Originally posted by Muddie
Actually they did.  Ploesti.  Didn't work out real well though.

Actually I think Ploesti wasn't unsuccessful from a damage inflicted point of view but casualties were higher than expected. But your comparing a strategic target (pretty easy to carpet bomb a refinery) vs hitting a specific structure like a fighter hanger. 54 out of the 177 planes were lost but damage was very heavy...

This is part of the operational order...

ATITUDES: BENGASI to TOCRA to 38º20' N 20º08' E begin climb so as to cross CORFU at 10,000 feet until reaching PIROT. At PIROT begin descent so as to cross DANUBE at 3,000-5,000 feet. Remain at 3,000 to 5,000 feet until reaching PITESTI. From PITESTI to IPs maintain minimum altitude above terrain. From IP to target reduce altitudes to bombing level.

Curious what the bombing level was...not clearly stated in "order 58".

[ghostdancer]

We are talking about a Ploesti scenario. Basically you have multiple attacks on Ploesti. Couple high alt bombing, a P38 JABO raid, and a low level B24 raid.

So in discussion stages right now among CMs.

[Muddie]

I don't know what their drop alt was.    It was pretty low though.  I've seen references to some of the buffs going trhough the field at 50 ft and others that mention "climbing to drop altitude".    I have an acquaintance that flew B-24s and hit Ploesti.  I don't recall if he was on the low run or not.  I'll see if I can contact him and get an answer (if he's still with us, that is).

     He's quite a guy.  Up until about 5 years ago, he was playing a credible game of doubles tennis.   Very poor form to take an overhand at him though (just don't let him know that).



       

Originally posted by humble
Actually I think Ploesti wasn't unsuccessful from a damage inflicted point of view but casualties were higher than expected. But your comparing a strategic target (pretty easy to carpet bomb a refinery) vs hitting a specific structure like a fighter hanger. 54 out of the 177 planes were lost but damage was very heavy...

This is part of the operational order...

ATITUDES: BENGASI to TOCRA to 38º20' N 20º08' E begin climb so as to cross CORFU at 10,000 feet until reaching PIROT. At PIROT begin descent so as to cross DANUBE at 3,000-5,000 feet. Remain at 3,000 to 5,000 feet until reaching PITESTI. From PITESTI to IPs maintain minimum altitude above terrain. From IP to target reduce altitudes to bombing level.

Curious what the bombing level was...not clearly stated in "order 58".

[humble]

ghostdancer....

Any solid data on B-24 drop height?

[pellik]

What kind of approach were you making on the buff formation there humble? Pretty much every bomber set except the ki's has a very hard time tracking cons attacking from the high (very high) 6. If you tried to come in too low you're presenting an almost stationary target with your engine and other essential parts pointing right at the guy. If you can't line up for a cockpit shot try to take your shot while > 45 degrees nose down and aim for the base of the wings. This method should aleviate some of your frustration.

-pellik

[humble]

I was climbing out from one of the "seaside" bases and noticed the B-24s coming in over the water...had to dive in and take "best angle"...was coming in pointed ahead of nose from about planes 9 oclock...literally no icon was visable during initial part of attack (think "top" part was at end)...I probably could of flown on thru with minimum damage but wouldnt have effected drop...chopped and "Skidded" plane to 45 degree facing at ~300 or so from lead buff...got pings in but 1st hit got oil,pilot and wingtip...no issue that it was a kamikazee run on my part. Simply tired of this type of suicide buff runs. Obviously with him running below "icon range" he was able to get in close undetected....hopefully we'll see more "real" bombing and nor more of this...but the combination of speed and bomb load also make this the "uber" suicide buff also...

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by humble
No "other shoe" involved...

I posted a seperate thread just to make sure I did get the facts right and appreciate HT taking a moment to put his dandruff back down and clarify things for me. Personally I'm looking forward to seeing those NOE buff runs in one of the scenarios...

There was thread a year or two ago (Pyro was part of it ... maybe hitech) which explained the *apparent* advantage of buff guns.  It went something like this ... If the buff and its attacker are flying the same speed, then all of the buff rounds have a speed of x;  however, if the attacker is closing on the buff at say y, the round will have the apparent velocity of x+y.  Kinetic energy depends on the square of the velocity ...

Hitech recently indicated there is no convergence setting for the buff guns (ah2 bug forum.)  I guess each 50cal is bore sighted.

curly

[humble]

Curly...

When I say "convergence" I'm talking about the concept of all guns being aimed at the same point...if I'm sitting in buff tail aiming at inbound fighter I thought all my guns in formation are slaved to my aim and that all with LOS fire at target when I do....

Pyro said that convergance is 500....does that mean that all other guns only hit at that range??

[Karnak]

Originally posted by humble
Pyro said that convergance is 500....does that mean that all other guns only hit at that range??

Yes.  At longer and shorter ranges the other other guns get progressively further from the target.

Use the .target command offline to see how much it changes.

[ghostdancer]

humble the drop height is for all bombs regardles of plane type or fighter or bomber designation.

Will have to go back through some things to find it. But basically the bomb must travel a certain distance before it arms.

So it depends on alt and speed. If you are at 100 ft and moving 100 mph the bomb travels x many feet before hitting the ground. At 100 ft and 230 mph  the bomb travels x many feet before hitting the ground.

I just have to dig up how many feet travel it  takes to arm a bomb.

But rough guess is a bomber at 50 ft is too close to the ground to allow the bombs to arm.

[humble]

Originally posted by Karnak
Yes.  At longer and shorter ranges the other other guns get progressively further from the target.

Use the .target command offline to see how much it changes.

Thanks...will check that out tonight after TOD...

[eskimo2]

I think they have to TRAVEL 500 feet.  This can happen if a plane is very low, but also very fast.  E.g., if a plane were traveling at 500 feet per second, the plane would only have to be at an alt of 17 feet.  (I know that that's not a realistic speed, but it illustrates the point.)

eskimo

[ghostdancer]

I think your right about the 500 ft of travel distance. Just have to find a reference to it.

[Alpo]

Originally posted by humble
Thanks...will check that out tonight after TOD...

Did this immediately after AHII came out with the changes of ballistics and icons, it was making my squad crazy.  You can see the changes between AH and AHII here B17 Gun Test

My complaint at the time was the guns from the formation converged at 1000 yards and as a fighter came in, they could get inside your effective range rather easily and you would basically shoot around them.  HT has since moved that convergence to 500 yards and it made a very nice change to lethality when someone is dumb enough to fly up your six  

Haven't updated with the pages with the new convergence but I have tested with the new setting and the bullets definitely hit hard at 400-600 and are spreading as you move away from those distances.

[ghostdancer]

Flossy found the reference for me in regards to how far a bomb has to travel to arm:


Release note 1.08

Added fuzes to all bombs. A bomb will not arm unless it’s traveled 1000 feet. This translates to about a 100 foot drop at 250 miles per hour. The faster you travel, the less altitude is required and vice versa.

So at 50 ft the bombers would have to be travelling at roughly 500 mph to have their bombs arm.

It does seem possible for one of the faster moving bombers to bomb from 100 ft though (anything that can reach 250 mph). Or go up to 200 ft (where skip bombing was done by B17s in New Guinea area) and they can definitely bomb.

On side a note would still like to see parafrag bombs.