Author Topic: Skids on landing Corsair  (Read 1008 times)

walts

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Skids on landing Corsair
« on: December 13, 2000, 08:42:00 PM »
Everytime I land a Corsair it goes into a spin, on the ground rolling, at somewhere around 70 MPH ?  I have tried the rudder at various trims. Seems to make no diff.  Once it starts to spin the rudder is not effective?  

What to do???

Offline SKurj

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2000, 09:51:00 PM »
What I have found works for me everytime is to give it a little throttle just as the tail starts to step out.  <credit to whomever gave me this advice in the MA>


AKSKurj

Offline Rocket

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2000, 10:12:00 PM »
are you hitting the brakes around that speed or above?

I haven't ground looped in a long time in my D.  I setup my approach with flaps and gear down slowing to 110 or so as I cross the end of the runway, gently ease her down at ~100 and then continue to roll down till the speed is below the 50mph hash.  Once at that speed brake as normal and exit or taxi to rearm/refuel pad  

S!
Rocket

Offline Duckwing6

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2000, 02:24:00 AM »
A key to NOT ground loop the F4U is to get the tail wheel down !

Because at speeds of around 50-70mph you won't have thr rudder authority from preventing the a/c to groundloop.

To get the wheel down ASAP it's most important to make a slow approach (110 mph) and if possible a three point landing (all 3 wheels at the same time) which takes a bit of practice to get it right.

Once you got the tailwheel down you have a LOT more control over nose swing, but don't let that et off your toes, you'll have to be prepared to counter any swing of the nose ASAP. Also be prepared to counter nose swing that happens because the ruddertrim (also affecting the tailwheel) isn't centered.

DW6

Offline Rickenbacker

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2000, 07:12:00 AM »
That explains it. I haven't noticed this on landing (I always make fully stalled out three point landings) bit if you push the nose down too early on takeoff you'll get the same effect. Very disconcerting, but now I know how to counter it, thanks Duck.

Incidentally, this is the only instance of torque affecting the takeoff/landing performance of any of these planes, so I always thought it was a neat little "quirk", but I wonder if the other planes shouldn't do this to some extent as well...

 

Offline discod

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2000, 02:06:00 PM »
He he he you think it's hard now...wait till carrier landings!  

Actually I had the same trouble for a long time...that big prop has a lot of torque  

What I found is that the F4U likes to land with some speed... I usually land at 120-150 mph with 1 notch of flaps.  Then you can use a combination of the rudder and the individial wheel brakes (very important) to keep it straight down the runway.  

You can land it with more flaps at much slower speeds but it is harder to do and less forgiving.  But once you get the hang of it you can land it in about 100ft or less  

I still like landing with some speed because I usually dive to the refuling pad clear at the other end of the runway anyway.

But no matter what speed you land at use a combination of rudder and individual wheel brakes and also keep a close watch on the little ball that indicates "slip"  if you see it swing over to the right, apply left brake, and vice-versa all the way down the runway.


Hope this helps.


Offline BaneX

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2000, 08:53:00 AM »
I should've quoted the original post, but the f4u isn't the only plane that does this.

I've done it several times in the P51. If I brake too soon, when I left off the brake even a little bit the plane will ground loop to the right and no amount of rudder will stop it.


Bane
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SwampRat

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2000, 11:58:00 AM »
Hahah, I can't wait for carrier landings!!  Carrier landings are way easier if you get out of the "be careful" mindset.  Try to crash that baby, just do it with finesse  

walts

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2000, 11:05:00 PM »
I am going to take the liberty to reply to my own post...... cause I found out something...  "c" on the keyboard is "left break, and "v" key is the right break.  No problem since I have learned that.. (this evening from a squaddie srpo... thnx for all your replys.  BTW, on carrier it should not be any prob as the HOOK and WIRE will keep it running straight on the deck... no breaks or rudder should be necessary IF  you "Catch the HOOK"   Thnx for the post.

Offline flakbait

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2000, 07:48:00 PM »
I've got film of a Corsair [D model] from takeoff to landing. My landing is very steep since I was trying to practice my carrier quals  

Landing a D-Hog

I found through trial and error that you can land at very low speed and not ground loop. Once you're down, drop the tail by pulling up and slam on the brakes. Don't use any rudder or you'll pull off my Chog landing; a 180º snap-turn on the runway. If you start drifting, give it a quick jab of rudder but DON'T hold it. Too bad films don't give you the option of having a small panel at the bottom. That panel would show control inputs, and key presses [brakes, trim and such]. Ahh well, I can dream can't I?

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"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
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And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

   

[This message has been edited by flakbait (edited 12-21-2000).]

Offline Tac

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2000, 07:32:00 AM »
turn the damn engine off before touchdown. Works EVERY time in ALL planes.

Offline SKurj

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2000, 10:01:00 AM »
Wish i could agree with you Tac hehe I've ground looped the hog with engine off lol  

AKskurj

Offline 54Ed

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2000, 04:40:00 PM »
Duck has it right.  Any tailwheel aircraft will groundloop if you let it.  As the speed decays, there is a transition zone where the airflow is too slow for the rudder to have full authority, but too fast to steer with the tailwheel.  All real-life taildragger pilots learn this.  The key is to plant the tail firmly on the ground so you start the tailwheel working for you before the rudder stops working for you.

A good taildragger 3-point landing is done at stall speed.  To execute it, set the aircraft up in a nice stabilized approach about 20% above stall speed.  In the corsair, 120 works good for me.  Use power to control your rate of descent while keeping your airspeed constant(remember the old rule: Pitch for airspeed, Power for altitude).

You should cross the runway threshold at about stall speed plus 10%, about 10 feet above the ground.  Let it float down to a few feet above the ground, then put it in the 3-point attitude and hold it there.  For most planes, this is where the top of the dash is even with the horizon.  If you have any doubt, just get in a parked plane and memorize the view.  It should look the same when you flare for landing.

Put the plane in the 3-point attitude, and then try to hold it there as long as you can.  Don't raise the nose, but don't let it drop.  This will require constantly pulling the stick further back.  The stall horn should be sounding at medium volume.

If you do it right, your plane will stall about 6 inches above the pavement, and you will plant yourself firmly on the runway.  At this instant, pull your stick all the way back and hold it there.  Since the plane is stalled, this prevents the AoA from reducing and the plane from starting to fly again.  

If you land using this technique, you will always touch down at minimum airspeed.  You won't bounce or porpoise.  Most importantly, you will rarely need brakes, and you can usually just coast to a halt.  

I strongly suggest you try to avoid using the rudder or differential braking on landing or rollout.  This just introduces yaw, which can develop into oscillation, which is the start of a ground loop.  Just align the plane with the runway centerline on approach, and keep it there. Absent a crosswind, no rudder should be needed.

What gets people in trouble is landing too fast.  You come screaming in and try to plant it 30 mph above stall speed.  At this speed, any bounce puts you back in the air.  If you do put it on the pavement, you have to stand on the brakes to keep from shooting off the other end of the runway.  During this whole process, any yaw becomes oscillation, leading to a ground loop.  Things are just happening too fast.  Just follow this rule: Never try to touch the pavement unless the stall horn is sounding.  

As for carrier landings, well I've never done a real one, but I did my first simulated one today in 1.05 and the above technique works like a charm.  Just get a good stabilized approach and control your airspeed precisely.  Use "Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" to control your descent path to put you on the arresting wires area at just above stall speed.  Touch down firmly, and either hook or go around.   Don't try to salvage a bad carrier approach.  One bounce, if you don't hook, then apply power smoothly and go around.  Ground loops and brakes aren't an issue, by the time that stuff happens you've missed the wires.  Again, the secret is speed control; too much and you're gonna bounce and miss the wires.

Offline Duckwing6

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Skids on landing Corsair
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2000, 05:19:00 AM »
Great post Ed !