What is scissoring?

[Beltfedd]

Hi guys,

What exactly is scissoring?  Is it like jinking?  Vertical or horizontal? Both?


Thanks for any help,

Beltfedd

[SpitLead]

Beltfed,

I'm not an expert on ACM stuff.  I'm sure you'll get a more in-depth and accurate response from some of the other guys.  That said, my understanding is that it's a series of crossing left and right turns.  Think of an imaginary straight flight path that you'll progress along doing this maneuver.  Now, along that path you roll left and cross over that path.  Once over that flight path you'll then roll right to cross back over that same straight imaginary flight path.  Again, once you've crossed to the right you would roll left and cross over again.  Repeating this process as you feel necessary in sort of a weaving "S"  (or scissoring like) pattern. Of course, a picture is worth a thousand words here! Maybe someone will post one <Ripsnort??>

This is a good defensive maneuver as it creates a constantly turning target for the nme.  Also it bleeds speed so if you're in a better turning airplane you will eventually get the advantage after several turns if he follows you.  Also, you have an advantage if he's following you since he'll lag behind and begins his turn late allowing you to get the angles on him.

There's also a rolling scissors which is a variation on this.  Rather than flat turns which I describe above I believe you roll in the opposite direction of the turn all the way and then pull thru.  This supposedly is better and will give you a tighter turn (though I've never quite figured out how).

Hope I didn't mislead you too much...

I'll be interested too to hear what others have to say.

[Badboy]

 

Originally posted by Beltfedd:
Hi guys,

What exactly is scissoring?  Is it like jinking?  Vertical or horizontal? Both?

Thanks for any help,

Beltfedd

The objective of the scissors maneuver is to force your opponent to overshoot and fly out in front of your guns. This is achieved by flying as slow as possible, reducing your turn radius with the use of flaps if possible and reversing your turn. Inspection of the EM diagram for the aircraft in question will often confirm that by using flaps, a slower speed and smaller turn radius are advantages that can be exploited, as shown in the diagram below.

 

In the example I’ve illustrated here, the difference in turn radius creates an automatic 170ft overshoot, that increments after each merge. At every reversal the overshoot gets larger and larger until the kill. The over shoot can also be seen to give the aircraft with the smaller turn radius an early turn. So it is best to begin each reversal just before the merge so that by the time your opponent reverses you are already turning in the next leg of the scissors. This illustrates another very important point, namely the use of rudder input to assist aileron control for a faster roll rate. This can have a great impact during this scissors maneuver. The ability to complete the 180-degree rolls in a shorter time provides two important advantages. The first is simply that by taking longer to execute the rolls you effectively extend your turn radius and thus increase any overshoot. Secondly, the ability to roll faster than an opponent reduces your OODA time cycles, which provides a small angular advantage each time you do it, throughout the fight.

Hope that helps...

Badboy

[Andy Bush]

Here's another look at the 'flat' scissors...one with and one without a lead turn.

   

The Scissors can be of two types...a two-dimensional maneuver where both opponents maneuver in a single plane (called the 'flat' scissors)...and a three dimensional maneuver where the opponents maneuver out of plane with each other (called the 'rolling scissors').

Badboy has described the 'flat scissors' well. This maneuver usually comes as the result of an attacker overshooting a target because of too much closure. As the attacker overshoots to the 'outside', the defender reverses to put his lift vector on the attacker..then the defender pulls hard to try and get behind the attacker. This brings the defender's flight path back across the attacker...who then reverses himself, rolls to put his lift vector on the defender and then pulls. This sets up a series of in-plane 'criss-crossing'..the advantage goes to the pilot who can slow down and turn the tightest.

The 'rolling scissors' is a whole different ball game...difficult to get into, difficult to stay in...well up the BFM food chain!

A rolling scissors is hard to get into...a typical entry is when the opponents approach head on and then both pull 'up' in the same direction. Each then makes a bid for the 'high six' of his opponent by rolling to point his lift vector 'above' and behind the other's tail. If both pilots do this, the result is something that looks like a tight Barrel Roll with the two aircraft on opposite sides of the barrel. The rolling scissors will only happen if both pilots fly the same rolling/pulling strategy...if not, the result is usually the pilot not rolling being pushed out front.

Often times you hear the term 'vertical rolling scissors'...this is a type of rolling scissors that is oriented in the direction of gravity, either going up or down (the 'vertical' in this term being associated with gravity). A rolling scissors may be flown in any direction, however...just as the 'flat' scissors can.

The rolling scissors is a very difficult maneuver to do in a flight sim...for a number of reasons. For one, both pilots must want to engage in the maneuver...and both must be proficient in out of plane maneuvering. Their flight models must be able to fly the high AOA, rolling type of flight (rudder input is important)...and most important, the viewing system must be able to allow the pilots to look in one direction while their nose is pointed in another. The padlock view (or external player to target) is best suited for this. Fixed (snap) views are not.

Anyway...difficult question to answer in print. Hope this helps.

Andy

[This message has been edited by Andy Bush (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Zigrat]

i strongly disagree with your sentiments on views. i am good at scissoring, but while before i started aces high 1 year ago i was wedded to padlock, this game has forever purged it from my system. I find that since i can't use my "head" as my reference for where im looking as in a real airplane, my thumb makes a better substutute than any padlock reference type system (a la the little thingy in the bottom left in falcon 4)

with the icons i aces high, keeping sight of teh bandit is very simple. if there were a) no padlock and b) no icons THEN keeping sight in a scissors woud be very difficult indeed!

[Andy Bush]

Zigrat

Great! Then you are just the guy I'm looking for.

How about writing an illustrated article on how to use the snap views in a scissors? I'd be very happy to put it up in the Air Combat Corner at SimHQ.

Andy

[Tac]

Whats the mystery to snap views? Look up, then to all sides as fast as possible until you see a red icon.

Icons must go  

[Lephturn]

I also disagree that the padlock view is best suited to scissors of any kind.  Is there anybody out there that is successful using the padlock view like this?  I've never heard of it.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the top pilots use the padlock view for anything, much less in demanding maneuvers like rolling scissors.

The problem is that although you track the bogey reasonably well with a padlock view, it gives you no feedback.  With the snap view you can orient yourself based on instant physical feedback.  You know which way your plane is flying because you always know where your pilot is "looking" based on your thumb pressing the view hat or fingers on the view keys.

Please take a look at my article here guys:  http://users.eastlink.ca/~sconrad/views.htm

I'm interested in any feedback, criticism, comments, squeakes, and whines.  

------------------
Sean "Lephturn" Conrad - Aces High Chief Trainer

A proud member of the mighty Flying Pigs
http://www.flyingpigs.com

Check out Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH articles and training info!

[Andy Bush]

I'm with Lephturn on the matter of the AH padlock...I don't use it and consider it nothing more than an automatic view changer.

My comments above were meant to be general in nature and not specific to any flight sim.

BFM is all about lift vector control, particularly in out-of-plane situations. If you can do this using snap views, then good on ya!

Andy

[Beltfedd]

Great responses guys!  Thanks for posting those diagrams, I'm understanding it now.  In fact, I've been unwittingly doing these maneuvers already, although a lot of the time it seems I pull it off too well (or the enemy has a large speed advantage) and I find it hard to get off that quick shot as the enemy speeds out in front of me.  Need more practice   , at least now I have a better unstanding of how to execute these now.


As to views, I tend to use a combination of snap and pan views.  If the con is in plane with me, snap of course.  If he starts to move out of plane a bit, I use pan to track him while I maneuver.  The minute I start to feel disoriented I will switch back to snap view and re-orient myslef quickly.

I basically try and use pan as a "manual padlock" view.

Anyways, thanks again for the help, once again I get some real informative responses for you all   .

Belt

[This message has been edited by Beltfedd (edited 03-26-2001).]

[janneh]

Best description about rolling scissors, I've read comes from WB tips storage and Kergan :

"Kergan posted 12-14-98 03:57 PM ET (US)            

Well, you start like this

Holds left hand up palm down

when he's like this

Holds other hand up slightly behind the left one

Then you sort of go like this, while he goes like this

much waving and swooping of hands

And then you sort of go like....

kergan's left shoulder makes a sickening popping sound

OW! ummm, excuse me, but I think i need to have this looked at....

walks away holding arm, while muttering that "at least it's not my stick hand"

Kergan, VMF-214
 

[This message has been edited by janneh (edited 03-26-2001).]

[SpitLead]

For me, the hardest part of scissoring is keeping the nme in sight.  I don't have a joystick with hat switches so I'm forced to use my left hand to do snap views.  Doing that, I'm unable to use my rudder as I don't have pedals and my left hand needed for the rudder keys is busy.  With rudder aiding my rolls in the turns I could turn quicker but can't.  This puts me in a bad position with an airplane that either turns as well or rolls better if the pilot either as rudder pedals or hat switches and can make quicker turns using his rudder.  

[Naudet]

 

I also disagree that the padlock view is best suited to scissors of any kind. Is there anybody out there that is successful using the padlock view like this? I've never heard of it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the top pilots use the padlock view for anything, much less in demanding maneuvers like rolling scissors.

I dont use padlock for scissors in AH, but in FA, padlock was my 1st choice for any type of fighting.
For those that dont know how the FA padlocks work a short description.

U have a few padlock buttons, most used is the "padlock nearest enemy" (especially useful in 1on1, but deadly in furballs   ).
Normaly u set 2 buttons on ur stick, one with the "padlock nearest enemy" and one eith "forward view".
Now when u fight u normally constantly switch between both view, in padlock u check the enemies position, in forwrd view u check the stauts of ur own plane.
But FA padlock gives u also a good feeling of ur planes movement when u stay in it. And this is cause FA padlock always centers the tgt in the middle of the screen. Giving u the feeling of turing ur head while following ur tgt, not like in AH were padlock only changes between i.e. forward view and forward view 45 degree up.

In a move like the scissor, u can use the FA padlock to get an idea of the relative psoition of both planes u also can time the moment when to press the trigger, cause u "feel" when the other bird will cross infront of and pass through the bullet stream.

In FA the key to be a real good pilot is to master padlock, once u know it and how to use, u will never use instant (snap) views again, cause the 2 button method above is faster than everything i know.

But in AH padlock is really bad, it only get u killed, and is not of any use, this has alos soemthing to do with the thing, that u use the padlock tgt once u used another view, i.e. to check instruments


P.S. in the training pahse u will stall and crash a couple of planes but once u have it, u will have a real edge vs. pilots that dont know how to use it


[This message has been edited by Naudet (edited 03-29-2001).]

[CavemanJ]

SpitLead have you thought about remapping yer keys (least til ya can get a set of pedals)?  Use the keypad /, *, and - keys for left, center, right.  Then you've got your rudder and views in the same place.  Take a little getting used to and some more dexterity practice for your left fingers, but might be a workable stop gap  

And I'll vote with the others that the padlock in AH is a good way to get killed.  Course that's why I like it.  I dive onto someone who's chasing a squad/countrymate and they're using the padlock view, they're meat on my table.
I much prefer to dance me fingers on the keypad during scissors because of the feedback I get from which keys I'm pressing telling me exactly which way my kite is oriented related to the horizon and the bandit.

[Zigrat]

sorry i didnt check here in a while...

Andy I would like to write up such an article, but it would likely take me a month to do. Would this be a problem?