Author Topic: A Very Good Read: Ben Steins last column (Read 1020 times)

TweetyBird · « **Reply #15 on:** November 12, 2004, 06:30:41 PM »

>>tweety I don't see anything liberal about that at all. I'm not sure were you see it.

I thaught the article was very well written and inspiring. <<

I do too. I dunno, there's a certain segment in here that seems to enjoy the misery of others and thrive on villifying anything they disagree with. I guess its easy to focus on them and forget how few they are. That was an unfair thing to say in retrospect.

I did like that line and think that is the sort of thing people reflect on when their time has come. Everything else is just BS.

Nash · « **Reply #16 on:** November 12, 2004, 06:47:29 PM »

It wasn't religion, it was spiritality. There wasn't an agenda, there was a belief.

An agenda would be, if as funked said, "you coerce others to help, in a way that you dictate, and whether they like it or not." (Unfortunately, considering the subject, he mistakenly applied that to liberals when I think you can make a much stronger case for the folks on the other side of the aisle.)

Still...

It was a good piece imho.

J_A_B · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2004, 06:56:31 PM »

"Morality and the Bible go hand in hand"

I strongly disagree. Morality has little or nothing to do with religion.

J_A_B

Gooss · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2004, 08:45:21 PM »

JAB,

Interesting. Without faith, what is morality?

I see morals as living in faith. How do you see it?

Gooss

Nash · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2004, 08:52:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Gooss
Interesting. Without faith, what is morality?Gooss

JAB didn't say anything about "faith". He said religion.

Religion, faith, values, the bible, morality.... how unneccessarily muddled.

Sparks · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2004, 09:52:29 PM »

I'm with JAB on this one.

It was a good read but when he went to his religious beliefs I switched off.

All the things he aspires to - selflessness, service, suppoting others - these are all things that do not need religion as their basis. It is common humanity. As an aetheist I see religion as the key distorter of common human values.

Nash · « **Reply #21 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:02:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Sparks
All the things he aspires to - selflessness, service, suppoting others - these are all things that do not need religion as their basis. It is common humanity.

Whatever gives you the idea that religion was anywhere involved in what he said?

There was no mention of Catholic, Christian, Muslim, whatever...

So where was the religion?

Was it because he said "god"?

That is not religion. That is faith, unburdened by religion. "Selflessness, service..." is the true "morality", however blurred and coopted by evangelists for their purposes.

Morality should inspire - not be used as a weapon of guilt.

Don't confuse these things.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:06:46 PM »

I've said it before and I will say it again. There is a HUGE extreme difference between FAITH and RELEIGON!

Furthermore there is nothing wrong with Ben Stein being a practicing Jew. The man made it clear he sat by his fathers death bed and realized there are more important things in life.

Deep breath....

OK another way to look at it. Why not just say "good for him. Glad it works that way for him"

I will never say that a person who has no faith is imorral unless they are in fact an imorral person. I think faith teaches us morals and the only distortions on the subject come from extremest religions. It's when religion turns to activism when things go bad.

I admire Ben Stein ALOT more after reading this. I'm glad he found god. I'm glad he found a way to fill a whole in his heart that he probably had for a long time. anyhow that's my rant.

It's a shame this guy can touch on a few subjects some only see "god" and shut it off.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:17:20 PM »

Morality has to do with the "God center" of the brain/mind. It doesn't neccessarily come from religion (though it can) but philosophy, life events etc. as well. Its the objective, rational part of the psyche that attempts a broader perspective away from basic needs.

There are experiments that have pointed to its general location, just as they can point to the general location of language, sight, smell etc.

IMO, stating morality comes from the Bible is religious bigotry or niavity. Morality comes from the "inner eye" or "God center" of your reality, and has been discussed since before Socrates (3 faces of man etc.) Christian religions have adopted these 3 personalities of man as "The Father" (The God center) the Spirit (emotional, zealot) and the Son (the acting, basic needs, laborer).

Nash · « **Reply #24 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:24:32 PM »

I saw this diagram once Tweety. I can't remember, but I think it was drawn around the time of Darwin. It seems to get at what yer saying.

It was a pyramid... and there were like, 6, maybe 7 levels to it. It had to do with human's needs.

On the bottom were purely survival things; food, shelter, water etc.

The top area started to shift towards spirituality. It was almost as if, once the basics, then the comforts, then the luxuries were taken care of, man could then afford to give some thought to spirituality.

I don't know how much weight I give it, because there are a whole ton of folks at the bottom who have no choice but to turn to god... but it seemed to make some sense... Wish I could remember why.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #25 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:31:10 PM »

I'm still searching for the dialogue ( I think its in the Repulic), but it talks about the 3 personalities of man (or 3 faces - I forget).
I do remember reading it though and thinking "Duh- thats where the trinity came from"

Reschke · « **Reply #26 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:38:08 PM »

Whether or not one believes in and expresses his opinion openly about his belief in God is not the point of the article. I am with Guns on this point.

Why can't people just read something and be glad for an individual for taking a stance on his/her point of view and be glad that they have something in life other than money, power and greed to go after.

Why can't we hold people up who do the little things in life such as teachers, military service men and women, fire fighters, police, etc...Probably because they are not the ones who are able to flaunt their wealth before our eyes. To me those are the ones who truly need guidance in life and its not necessarily spiritual guidance that they are in need of.

In case you are wondering I do believe in God and have faith that at the end life will have been worth living; in all my sins and repentance. However I will never try to shove my ideas down your throat about religion. To me that is wrong and not what telling the world about my faith in God is about.

BTW nice article that Mr. Stein wrote.

TweetyBird · « **Reply #27 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:40:24 PM »

Agree 100% . How he came by his conclusions is trivial. The message had (is of) great wisdom.

Nash · « **Reply #28 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:43:35 PM »

dang... forced me to look into what I was talking about.

Turns out it doesn't say anything wrt spirituality. I wonder why I perceived it like that when I first saw it. Anyways, here is is:

maslow's hierarchy

Sparks · « **Reply #29 on:** November 12, 2004, 10:44:49 PM »

Nash -

From original article

Quote

God is real, not a fiction, and when we turn over our lives to Him, He takes far better care of us than we could ever do for ourselves.

In a word, we make ourselves sane when we fire ourselves as the directors of the movie of our lives and turn the power over to Him.

No he doesn't state a specific relgion but to me, as an aetheist, I see someone who has faith in a God as he describes has a religion.

I think I get switched off because people seem to have to acsribe their improved morals to a belief in a God. I see it as a decent bahaviour to others as a facet of human nature - I don't need to be religious (by that I mean having a faith of any sort in a divine being) to have the same morals. It is as if they need an excuse for their behaviour before gaining faith - 'I was immoral before because I didn't have faith in God / allah / the great tree god' .

In my opinion there is an inference in any public declaration of faith like that that 'I have become a better person because of my faith therefore if you do not have faith then you cannot hold my moral values'. There rarely seems to be an acceptance in these public outings that he was probably a shallow selfish dick previously and he's sorry and has realised and changed his behaviour - the reason is always that he 'found' something.

Quote

Why not just say "good for him. Glad it works that way for him"

Because of what I said above - the inference. I would have much more respect for him if he just said "I realised I was shallow etc etc - I have grown and changed" leave out the justifictaion. If he has a developed a belief in a god all well and good but why proclaim it ?? Why do you need to justify this change unless it is to absolve your responsibility for your previous actions?

It just cranks me up ...........