A Very Good Read: Ben Steins last column

[TweetyBird]

Actually the diagram reads as you stated. They just don't use the word "spirituality."

These different levels of reality are a common theme thoughout the history of man, and way before the Bible. Thats not to take a shot a the Bible. But it is accentuated in many religions and philosophies.

BTW has anyone here studied about the Dead Sea scrolls, and Jesus's travels to the east?

[Sparks]

Reschke

It was a good article I agree and it spoke of values we should all strive for ...... for the first two thirds.  Then it became a public proclamation of faith and how it had changed him as a person and then a sermon.

I would agree with every value he has found in that article and I would say every person is capable of behaving in a way ascribed to in those values without the need for faith - so why raise it ?? Why even mention a God ?? Why not just say I became a better person ??  What is the necessity of a public statement of a belief in a god driving your behaviour ??

[Nash]

Sparks - you made a damned good argument...

I'm trying at the moment to figure out how to split the hairs and come up with a reply to that...

[TweetyBird]

Because he's being honest and not contrived? If he feels he came to these conclusions through God, why not state it? If he didn't it wouldn't be honest would it? I don't think he said that's the ONLY way to come to such conclusions.

[Sparks]

Being honest would simply be about him realising he hasn't had the best values and he accepts his responsibilty for his past failings but he has changed.  

If he feels he came to these conclusions through God, why not state it? If he didn't it wouldn't be honest would it?

OK if he came to his conclusions through a development of a faith then a simple statement would have been sufficient but it in being honest about his change of attitudes didn't REQUIRE it.  Also the nature of the proclamation went beyond the requirements of personal honesty - it changed from "I" to "we" and "us" - it became inclusive.  It even ended with a declaration of gods powers.

I also ask you this - if he had achieved this new morality through a belief that he had heard voices from an oak tree telling him to change his life do you think the artivle would be viewed in the same light??

[Gunslinger]

Sparks you make a good point.  The same point can be made THAT:

If you study the teachings of christ from a scholarly stanpoint and not one of faith in a higher being you can come to learn the morals that his lessons do teach.  Seriously, I can't recall JC saying a bad thing about anyone or anything.


To me he (christ) is the standard of morals not the source.  One can be a religious scholar and have no morals whatsoever!  People that hold "religous leaders" as the standard for "religion" arent making a fare comparison for religion is not the same as faith to me.  It's kinda like taking the president of any country and saying the people of that country are exactly like him.  




as far as the article goes.....I don't consider myself a hero for serving my country yet people all the time thank me.  I don't consider my Mother a hero for recently retiring from teaching High School for 27 years Yet I know she is to some people and have actually talked to some of her former students that say she changed their lives.  But she is a hero for being a mother

I do consider my dad a hero, he worked for a company as a manager for 30 years and was fired for company politics.  He took a job managing a fast food place at the age of 46 to put food on tabele and put a roof over our heads.

Heroism to me is doing more with less to help somone when there is no reason to put forth the extra effort.  The Marines in Faluja right now are my heros.  The firemen down the corner that wont bat an eye at running into a burny building to savy one of my kids are my heros.  

John Cusak (SP) may be one of my favorite actors but he's nothing special in real life.  

It's great that somone from the "elite hollywood" crowd feels that way and feels compelled to write about it.  Plus it's Ben Stein:  "Buler, Buler, Buler, Buler?"

[Silat]

Originally posted by VWE
Morality and the Bible go hand in hand... so no, the point would not have been made as clearly without be able to reach deep inside.

You do not need the bible to be moral.

[VWE]

IMO, stating morality comes from the Bible is religious bigotry or niavity.

O.k. faith would have been a better choice of words than bible though my faith is derived from God. But what ever religion you practice, God is still the center of it. Morality and religion go hand in hand.

Let the flames continue... carry on.

[Shuckins]

How incongruous it is for some to extoll "diversity" while simultaneously recoiling from a heartfelt and non-threatening statement of an individual's spirituality.

[wklink]

Actually I don't think so.  Bin Laden has faith, but no morality.  While in general a lot of people have gotten their morality from their faith, and many through their religion, there are those, like James Jones, that take people's faith and twist it to their own desires.

I am personally a religeous man, and I hope a man of faith and of morality.  I learned my moral code (basically to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ) from my parents.  Others can learn of a similar morality (treat others as you would treat yourself) without a religion or even a 'faith' of any kind.

I do think it is possible.  I also believe that there is nothing wrong with saying God is responsible for his beliefs.  Even if you don't believe in God you can still acknowlege that, for this person at least, this 'God figure' was an influence in his life.  If it makes him an upstanding member of society and a good father, husband and human being then it really isn't a bad thing.

[Suave]

You don't need religion to be moral. You don't even need religion to be spiritual. There is a much higher incidence of antisocial behavior in the religious part of the population when compared to the irreligious.

[J_A_B]

JAB,

Interesting. Without faith, what is morality?

I see morals as living in faith. How do you see it? "

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I view morality as attempting to do the right thing, because it's the right thing.   You do not have to believe in any particular religion to know right from wrong.

Saying that morality = faith is automatically dismissing all agnostics and atheists as immoral.  To me, that seems rather silly.  Likewise...having a religion doesn't automatically make you a moral person...we all know plenty of scumbags who go to church weekly.   It's HOW you live, not what religion you subscribe to--if any--that matters.  


J_A_B

[Sparks]

Nicely put JAB

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by Shuckins
How incongruous it is for some to extoll "diversity" while simultaneously recoiling from a heartfelt and non-threatening statement of an individual's spirituality.

It's callled tollerance!  

[Gooss]

Is Morality attempting to do the right thing?  Or is Morality the right thing we attempt to do?

I see morals or morality as the right thing to do as defined by God and administered by His Church.  With regards to Christians (I'm Catholic), immorality is, by definition, sin.  

Please do not judge religion by religious people who are "scumbags".  (If their religion is correct, they'll get what they deserve eventually.)  Should atheists be judged the same way in fairness?  By the secular scumbags?  Let's not go there for the sake of this discussion.

In a non-religious sense, what is the standard, the "right thing"?  Who defines it?  For the non-religious person, what is morality?

Gooss