Creating overshoot

[xRAM]

When being chased by the enemy, and wanting to create an overshoot situation is it better to kill the engine or just bring the throttle back.
Just curious as to which is the fastest way to slow down.

Thanks
xRAM

[Dead Man Flying]

Killing the engine is probably the fastest way to slow down, but it's not necessarily the best way.  Cutting the engine can slow you down too much at times, especially if you're performing a manuever after you've done it.  The result can be that you've slowed down but lost all control over the plane.  Obviously, that's not optimal.

The benefit of throttling back is that, despite bleeding speed more slowly, you also regain speed more quickly by throttling up when needed.  That helps for snapshots or chasing the guy who's just overshot you.

Though I always find myself repeating this over and over again, it's always the case that what you use depends on the given circumstances.  Sometimes, cutting the engine is best.  Other times, chopping the throttle with engine on is best.  If you do either one where it's inappropriate, you'll pay for it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Lephturn]

I say neither.  

The best way to create an overshoot is to modify your flight path and maintain as much speed as you can.  Now you may need to reduce throttle or add flaps as well depending on the situation, but if you can force an overshoot by simply modifying your flight path to fly further and maintain your speed, that is the best.

What do I mean by that?  Flat scissors, vertical scissors, rolling scissors, and barrel rolls all modify your flight path so that you are flying further and can maintain more speed.  They also make you very difficult to shoot while performing the maneuver, as an additional benefit.  If your attacker is gaining on you quickly already, you may not want to chop throttle at all, as you want enough speed after he overshoots to saddle up and nail him.

Sometimes if the closure rate is not great enough or you are flying too fast to perform the maneuvers you want, you may get additional benefit by dropping speed as well.  I agree it's better to reduce throttle than kill the engine to dump extra speed.  You can reduce the throttle by degrees to get just the additional slowdown you need, and the power will come back on almost instantly.

Whether to reduce power as well as using flight path displacement techniques depends completely on the situation.  Keep a close eye on the other fellow, and don't cut throttle unless you must.  Airplane performance and fuel situations will also play a part here.  A lighter plane that handles well at low speed will want to cut throttle and get really slow, while a heavier plane that doesn't do well at very low speed will not want to get into that situation.  Also a plane with a very stong engine that accellerates well (109G10 for example) will have no fear chopping throttle, as he can accellerate very well after the maneuver.

[xRAM]

Thank You
That info will help alot

xRAM

[Apar]

When U have somebody at your six I suggest try useing flat scissors and rolling scissors, you don't need to cut throttle at all in most cases. Flat scissors can be very advantageous in fast rolling planes and U can do both maneuvers at high speed. The trick is to make your oponent lose sight of U and change flight path once that has happened (look back to see how he reacts on your maneuvers)
When U get bounced a gentle dive turn (not a split S) followed by a zoom up will do in most cases while trying to maintain as much E as possible (You might need it for the rest of the fight)

[Seeker]

"Killing the engine is probably the fastest way to slow down"

I'm not sure you're right there, Tod. A slow running prop disc has more drag than a stopped prop. Certainly I glide further on a dead engine than a slow running one.

[Tac]

Im with lephturn on this one, however, that may not apply on some planes.

If you flying an la7, a n1k, zeke,205 or p38 you may actually WANT to slow down by throttling down and manouvering. These planes have either good acceleration or excellent low speed handling. La7 and 38 you can slow down to make the other guy overshoot and use the accel to regain your speed or gain an angle advantage, the n1k and zeke and 205 have decent accel and great handling at low speed, so if you really want them to overshoot, use their turn/low speed abilities to get the other guy.

[-ammo-]

depending on the AC types involved, I suggest a break turn as well as teh other types of scissors and barrel roll.  Knowing when to use each of the these manuevers makes a sim pilot better.

In the break turn, it works well when your adversary behind you is in a hi wingloaded AC, like a pony, FW, 109, etc... Trying this manuever against a spitfire can get you in trouble.  situation, you have bandit closing your 6. You want to equalize your energy states as m,uch as possible. Nose down enough to gain you some speed/energy. Get yourself 300-350 IAS. He closes rapidly you go into a left or right turn, but not hard! as he gets closer (under a 1000 yds) start increasing your rate of turn. You want him to follow you. AT the point he is close enough for guns, roll your AC upright and in the same motion pull up slightly and then turn back to the other direction from your initial turn. He is going to overshoot you if he took the bait.  Two things can happen, 1) use this oppertunity to gain seperation and extend out. 2) try for the offensive role and aquire guns on him.  Because I am the aggresive type, I almost always go for guns. But if the odds are heavily against you..IE you are in enemy territory, there is many more than just him, then take option one.

This manuever takes practice and good judgement. Give it a whirl.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: -ammo- ]

[Vector]

S!

This is good move especially for P-47's and other not-so-good-turners. But if bogie figures out what you're up to and switch from lead/pure turn to lag (or lag roll), then you're in trouble. I've been wondering how to deal with this kind of nme. At the point where you roll your wings level, how about pulling a loop? Other choice could be rolling your wings to 45° opposite direction from you original turn and pull very lazy and big roll. Any suggestions? Say you have a P-51 in your 6, which one could be more effective if you want to put your guns into him?

[-ammo-]

Hi vector, very good questions.  It is very subjective really. You learn which option to take  as per situation. Basically its like chess. You are reactionary to what the other guy does, trying to stay ahead of him.

In the case he sees the bait and does not follow you into your break, then you have to read that and act instantly. He goes nose up, or goes into a lazy lag, then you have to extend with what you got. At the mi9nimum, when he does this, you will very likely have your energy states completely equalized, however with him in your rear quarter.  If you are in a jug, and him a pony, there more than likely be a point wherte he will comit and you guys will go into some sort of rolling scissors.  You  cant run for long with him holding the speed card in his hand.  However if he is in something like a 190a or 109f, g2, g6, then you can extend away from these guys. Remember that you cannot outclimb them so keep your nose level or down, only enough to get away.  As for using a loop, I dont ever suggest this, unless you are in something like a spit, a zeke, hurricane.  Then you can most likely stay ahead of him. If his lift vector is far off of yours though (as it should be) then a loop might just work. Remeber though, that you are working to gain an energy advantage over him as well as an angles one.  As you describe a barrel rioll or a defensive spiral, I do use thos in conjunction with a break turn, often.  Sometimes the adversary sees it coming but they have already commited. The first break turn doesnot get them out in front of you, so maybe a transition into a barrel roll wioll finish it, giving you an offensive position in his rear quarter.  ONE HUGE factor is to NEVER lose sight of him. But when you do get behind him, get low in his rear quarter and stay under his tailwheel so he cant see you. Lose sight, lose fight.

[Andy Bush]

Ammo has made a good point when he talks about a break turn. The earlier references to scissors are a little off. A scissors is the result of an overshoot, not the reason.

We can force an overshoot two ways. One way is to turn tight enough that the bandit fails to match our turn and as a result flys through our flight path. Call this an angular overshoot if you want.

The other way is to reduce speed so quickly that the bandit is unable to slow down with you. The result is that the bandit flys past you pretty much on the same flight path. Call this a closure overshoot.

The best way to force an angular overshoot is to place your lift vector in the bandit's plane of motion and then pull hard. Do this by rolling until the bandit is in your top view, ie you are looking at the bandit out of the top of your canopy.

Do this at long range and you may be able to meet the bandit in your front quarter. You will know this because when pulling, the bandit will move forwards towards your canopy bow/gunsight area.

If you initiate this maneuver at close range, you can expect the bandit to move backwards to the rear of the top view. If you are successful, you will still see a lot of planform on the bandit as it moves back on your top view (lots of angle off). Note the speed at which the bandit overshoots. If he is sliding through your six very quickly, then you can attempt a fast reversal by unloading and then rolling into the bandit. If the bandit's overshoot rate was slow (and you elect to attempt a reversal), then execute a slower reversal by keeping the G on as you roll back into the bandit. This is a very difficult situation to assess in a sim...I suggest a better plan may be to unload and extend while you look back to assess bandit nose position. Sometimes a slow reversal only solves the bandit's overshoot and leaves you dead in the water.

If you don't see a lot of planform (low angle off), then your attempt at forcing an overshoot has failed. You then need to move along to step two of your defense.

Creating a closure overshoot is known as a type of "last ditch guns defense" in traditional BFM. The two most common maneuvers for this are the High G Roll Over the Top and the High G Roll Under. In both cases, the pilot rolls back into the bandit while increasing G to the maximum. In the roll over the top, the pilot keeps the G on as he reverses his bank (rolls opposite the original turn) until his lift vector is pointed at the bandit. In the roll under, he keeps the G on and rolls in the direction of the turn...goes inverted...and then continues until his lift vector is on the bandit.

The roll over the top depletes energy faster than the "under" roll. If the sim models rudder correctly, use full rudder along with the aileron input since rudder can add to high angle of attack roll rate.

If successful, you should see the bandit fly past your 3/9 line in the general direction of your flight path. You can expect that the bandit will most likely pull up to stop his forward motion...so look for the bandit at your high 12 o'clock.

From this point on, you are committed to a close in fight where the bandit has most of the advantages. Most of your options are gone....that's why it is referred to as a "last ditch" maneuver! So why do it in the first place?

Because it is a guns defense! It is intended to defeat the intial gun attack, not put you into a winning follow-on position. It keeps you alive a little longer, that's all.

You may use a throttle chop with this last ditch maneuver. It will tend to increase the longitudinal overshoot...but at the end, you are really in an energy deficit!

How can you get out of this? One way is to finish the roll, check that the bandit has in fact overshot, and then go for max angles and airspeed by split-essing out of the fight. What if you have done this at low altitude and you can't split-S? Then you are in deep doo-doo. Pull to the bandit's extended six. Try to stay under him. Minimize the vertical separation between you and the bandit by climbing up into him if possible. If he turns, stay in phase with him...don't go out of phase as this will increase his turning room. You are basically stagnated. Your plan is to deny him an entry...eventually your hope is that he will extend away. If so, you do the same!

Andy

[Reschke]

Thanks for the insight there Andy. All the other guys helped out a good bit with information and opinions as well.

I have found myself in that "last ditch" guns defense more times than I want to admit and have always wondered "What just happened?" to myself after I lived for a while and eventually got smoked by an enemy outside of the fight. Being a LW driver primarily and then specifically flying the Fw-190 series limits the amount of defensive manuevers that one can pull in a fight.

So with that said here is the setup and a question. I sometimes (Well in the MA it is ALWAYS this way.) find myself in a fight with a few Spitfires or even an LA7 or LA5 from time to time. Usually this happens when I am pulling out of a dive on a base or town after attacking it. I am on a pretty level E state with them but often find it tough to do more than out roll them and evade. However knowing that I will bleed energy faster than the aforementioned aircraft. So besides running for altitude to come back with or flying something else what other options would you guys recommend? My usual Fw-190 is either then F8 or A5 versions.

Thanks in advance.

[Lephturn]

Andy,

Great stuff, thanks.    BTW, Aces High does model rudder properly IMO, so not only will use of the rudder increase your roll rate, it will also increase drag a bit from it's deflection, and a high yaw angle will increase drag significantly.  Some rudder will help you roll faster.  Stomping the pedal to one side and holding it will increase your yaw rate and slow you down very quickly as well.  I use it when slowing for landings as well as for last ditch guns defense.  

Reschke,

Well, those planes are pretty different, so the answer is a combination of "it depends" and "don't do that".    Lets tackle the various planes.

1.  vs. La7 (La6 pretty similar?):  It's very similar to the FW in many ways.  Great accelleration, high speed, doesn't turn too good.  It will retain E a bit better but isn't a great turner either.  It's so fast you don't want to try to extend away from it.  Ideally you want an E advantage to fight this one since it's very similar to your FW but better in key areas.  If you are in the A5, you may want to go hard angles on him since the A5 turns pretty well.  Although the FW burns E quickly, this allows it to have a very high instantaneous turn rate from medium to high speeds.  You can use that to kill him.  If it goes to a longer more drawn-out fight, you may die as he E fights you to death.  Know how to use lag pursuit moves to saddle up and stay there, and don't pull lead until you have a really good kill shot.  Don't miss.

2.  vs. Spit V:  Completely different from your FW, so you can exploit that.  Again, start with an E advantage.  If you can't, take a quick snapshot and extend.  Come back with an E advantage and BnZ him to death.  If you get in trouble, extend away and you'll leave him in the dust.

3.  Vs. Spit IX:  Also a better turner, but faster and a decent accellerator.  Have an E advantage to start.  If you don't have at least E parity, get the heck out, fast.  If you can't get enough separation or are too slow to escape, use all your E fighting skills.  See my comments on lag pursuit above.  But if you are in a knife fight down low with a Spit IX at an E disadvantage... expect to die.

Bottom line... the FW is an E fighter.  That means that you need an E advantage at the start of a fight even more than other planes if you expect to win.  It rolls very well, accellerates very well, and turns not bad. (The A5 anyway, the F8 less so?)  It's moderately fast in this planeset, and it handles very well at high speeds.  Leave yourself some altitude to work with, and try to stay above 250 Mph at all times to give yourself E to work with when you get in trouble.  Get to be a good gunner, as the FW's great instantaneous turn rate can follow break turns fromo slower aircraft and give you snapshots.  The true FW aces are the guys that can make those snapshots count.

[Reschke]

Thanks Lephturn. One thing I already utilize (and have for quite some time since settling into one type of plane) to a great extent is the ability to roll better than most of the other planes I find myself going up against. I have not thought of the La7 as a similar plane to the Fw-190 but since you pointed those out I will be looking for those points and trying to work on them.

Thanks again to all who wrote in this thread on the overshoot and my question.