Author Topic: Bf-110G questions. (Read 1604 times)

Karnak · « **Reply #15 on:** November 16, 2004, 06:40:28 PM »

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Originally posted by Angus
Close....in which ones favour Karnak?

As I said, I think it is in the Mossie's favor. And that is against a Fighter-Bomber Mossie with flame dampers.

I agree with GRUNHERZ to an extent. The Fw187 would have been vastly better than the Bf110, but I don't think it would have been as good as the DH Hornet.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #16 on:** November 16, 2004, 06:43:30 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
As I said, I think it is in the Mossie's favor. And that is against a Fighter-Bomber Mossie with flame dampers.

I agree with GRUNHERZ to an extent. The Fw187 would have been vastly better than the Bf110, but I don't think it would have been as good as the DH Hornet.

How would it have stacked up to the Whirlwind?

The Russians thought the 410 was a better a/c than the Mossie.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #17 on:** November 16, 2004, 06:53:28 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
As I said, I think it is in the Mossie's favor. And that is against a Fighter-Bomber Mossie with flame dampers.

I agree with GRUNHERZ to an extent. The Fw187 would have been vastly better than the Bf110, but I don't think it would have been as good as the DH Hornet.

Of course not as good as Hornet, hornet was a late war design after many lessons were learned while Fw187 was designed around 1937. However the concepts are strikingly similr in that both were almost identical in size, single seters that greatly outperformed contemporarly single engined fighters with the same engine. For example a 700hp jumo powered 109 did soime 290mph but the Fw187 managed over 330mph on the same pwerplants. Pretty similar speed difference between a 2000hp spitfire and 490mph DH hornet. With 1475hp DB605s the Fw187 might be almost as fast as a P51D...

Tails · « **Reply #18 on:** November 16, 2004, 07:10:55 PM »

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Originally posted by Angus
Easy to handle?
Maybe, but prone to flat spinning so 109 pilots that flew the 110 were warned against taking it to wild maneuvers.
Mölders brother flew the 110, one of his squadmates overdid it and flatspun to his death.

Oh yeah, 110's love to flat spin, though this is a problem that tends to plague most multi-engine planes. Has something to do with the 'flywheel effect', where once the thing starts to spin, those big flyweights on either side of the CG (called engines) help it stay in a spin.

Mozzie's and P-38's suffer from it to varying extents as well, as do some of the single's we have here.

Keep a handle on the 110 and try not to let it snap or spin on you, and you got a rather nicely handling plane for something so fuggin huge!

Karnak · « **Reply #19 on:** November 16, 2004, 07:48:54 PM »

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Originally posted by MiloMorai
How would it have stacked up to the Whirlwind?

The Russians thought the 410 was a better a/c than the Mossie.

The Fw187 would have had Whirlwind's for breakfast I think.

I don't think the Russians had enough experience with the Mossie to be able to say that with any accuracy. A Spitfire LF.Mk IX can run down an Me410, but not a Mosquito FB.Mk VI.

SunKing · « **Reply #20 on:** November 16, 2004, 07:52:11 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
I also recall one P-47 pilot describing the Bf110 as "meat on the table."

BF-110 is my Favorite warbird.

This painting ( which I own ) pretty much sums it up.

Flying out of Wels in Austria, II/ZG 1, the Wasp Wing as it was known, was a veteran Luftwaffe unit of the Eastern front and the only surviving unit operational on the Me110. When in June 1944 Wasps participated in the attack against U.S. bombers headed for the city of Budapest, it was the last time the Me110 was flown into battle in daylight. Here P-47's of the famous Checkertails on escort duty, suddenly and ferociously attack two Me 11O's of the Wasps.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #21 on:** November 16, 2004, 08:05:49 PM »

Thats a very strange painting since those are 1940 model Bf110s supposedly fighting in 1944...

MiloMorai · « **Reply #22 on:** November 16, 2004, 08:34:50 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
The Fw187 would have had Whirlwind's for breakfast I think.

I don't think the Russians had enough experience with the Mossie to be able to say that with any accuracy. A Spitfire LF.Mk IX can run down an Me410, but not a Mosquito FB.Mk VI.

The FB VI topped out at ~380mph. Now what did the Spit top out at? The 410 topped out at ~390mph.

I will let Barbi answer why the Russians thought the 410 was better for he is the source.

Karnak · « **Reply #23 on:** November 16, 2004, 08:44:41 PM »

MiloMorai,

The account I have read is of a Me410 diving to escape two Spitfire Mk IXs. Both Spitfires dove after it, but after chasing for awhile one gave up. The other Spitfire began to close the distance and the Me410's tailgunner attempted to shoot the Spitfire, but emtied his guns without scoring a hit. The Spitfire then closed to within 200 yards and shot the Me410 down. This happened in Italy.

If it had been a Mosquito Mk VI the Spitfire would never have closed the range.

Also, look at the wing loading of the Me410. It is significantly higher than that of the Mosquito.

The Mosquito Mk VI without the flame dampers toped out at about 387mph at 13,000ft. It is the low tuned engines that keep the Mk VI from being faster than the Me410. The Mk.30 with high blown engines did about 420mph.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #24 on:** November 16, 2004, 08:59:39 PM »

Karnak, you never said it was during a dive.

The Mossie was limited to 400mph IAS in a dive. The Spit's limit was higher.

Yes and the Mossie B.IX topped out at almost 440mph.

Karnak · « **Reply #25 on:** November 16, 2004, 09:28:29 PM »

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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Karnak, you never said it was during a dive. The Mossie was limited to 400mph IAS in a dive. The Spit's limit was higher.

Yes and the Mossie B.IX topped out at almost 440mph.

Limits listed in the pilots handbooks are peacetime limits, not failure points.

For example, the Mossie VI is limited to 250lb bombs, but it often carried four 500lb bombs in actuallity.

And it wasn't in a dive, that is the point. Either the Mossie or Me410 will pull away from the Spit IX in a dive, but the Me410 will then slow to below the Spitfire's sustained speed. The Mossie will stay faster than the Spit.

EDIT: Mossie B.IX topped out at 408mph, IIRC.

VO101_Isegrim · « **Reply #26 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:10:36 PM »

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Originally posted by Karnak
MiloMorai,

The account I have read is of a Me410 diving to escape two Spitfire Mk IXs. Both Spitfires dove after it, but after chasing for awhile one gave up. The other Spitfire began to close the distance and the Me410's tailgunner attempted to shoot the Spitfire, but emtied his guns without scoring a hit. The Spitfire then closed to within 200 yards and shot the Me410 down. This happened in Italy.

If it had been a Mosquito Mk VI the Spitfire would never have closed the range.

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Why, as you said below, the MkVI topped out at 387mph or so. That`s significantly slower than the MkIX Spitfire or the 109G/190A. Also as noted the Mossie wasn`t anything special in a dive, wooden construction, low wingloading etc. Not having exact numbers at hand, I`d suppose it was somewhat faster than the 110/410, but still decidedly inferior to the single engined fighters of the time. Heinz Knoke in his diary mentioned the shooting down of a (recce?) Mossie in his 109G, after giving it a chase. And the 109G was certainly not any faster than the IXLF, at least not at low/medium altitudes.

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Also, look at the wing loading of the Me410. It is significantly higher than that of the Mosquito..

[/b]

Hmm, that`s true, reportedly the the 210/410 could not turn as tight as the 110s. But they had leading edge slats which compensated for wingloading, just as on any Mtt design.. Wingloading tells little alone. The 109s had some 25% higher wingloading than Spits, but all pilots who flew them both say the difference in turn is so little that it`s the pilot who makes the difference.

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The Mosquito Mk VI without the flame dampers toped out at about 387mph at 13,000ft. It is the low tuned engines that keep the Mk VI from being faster than the Me410. The Mk.30 with high blown engines did about 420mph.

Hmm, the Mk VI was the most common Mosquito type, not to mention arriving at the apprx. same time as the 410As... the role was quite different though... the Mossie was in essence a light bomber, the 210/410 was designed from the start as a fast bomber (Kampfzestorer), with very strong emphasis being on the multirole ability.. very advanced concept and technology for it`s time, IMHO.

As Milo referred to, the Soviets run tests on both the FBVI and the 210Ca (not the 410), and overall they found the 210 a better plane.. no specifics though, but that what Oleg Maddox said on the matter, and I have no reason to doubt him.

Angus · « **Reply #27 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:26:30 PM »

Messerchmitt religion at it again.
The 410 has interesting features, yet not much of an impact in WW2. Why so, I admit I do not know. Maintenance or low production numbers?
It's the one called Hornisse, or was that the 210?
All ears anyway.

And then to this:

"Wingloading tells little alone. The 109s had some 25% higher wingloading than Spits, but all pilots who flew them both say the difference in turn is so little that it`s the pilot who makes the difference. "

I completely disagree. Given similar wing designs, which was often the case in WW2, wingloading tells a lot and affects primarily climbrate, then secondarily turning ability.
The 109 probably got saved by the slats in a turning campaign vs a Spitfire, yet it was not enough. 109E vs SpitI 18 seconds to 25?
Just imagine if the Spitty would have had adjustable flaps, - giving even more lift than slats......

Anyway, this is not the issue of this thread, - and yet.
Try turnfighting a mossie with a 110. 110 wins, at least the older type. Why? Yes, LOWER WINGLOADING!

Karnak · « **Reply #28 on:** November 17, 2004, 02:41:11 PM »

Barbi,

Slats are not magical wonders. They help a little, but not that much. DH was going to put slats on the Mossie, but decided against it as the Mossie's manuverability was fine without them.

The Mossie doesn't have low wing loading, just not stupidly high wingloading like the 210 and 410.

As to the dive, I have no idea where you got the idea the Mossie was bad in a dive. It was fine in a dive. I have an accout of one reaching 420IAS at 19,000ft with no adverse effects.

No where did I claim the Mossie was a superior fighter to the single engined fighters of the day. Don't put words in my mouth.

I know you worship anything German, but lose the rose colored glasses. Just because it is German does not make it automatically better.

frank3 · « **Reply #29 on:** November 17, 2004, 03:02:32 PM »

Just adding a nice picture to this all, makes the reading a bit more...comfortable