Please stop this HO thing!

[Dinger]

Ok, I'll play:
First of all, I repeat the word "idiotic" for a sound rhetorical purpose: if someone's going to challenge my calling something "idiotic", I have to use that word to explain my position.
Secondly, if you read, I have, and do suggest ways to "fix" the scoring.
Third, your evaluation of the "current system" is flawed:
A. Nobody really knows what will happen in an HO.
Negative.  Both pilots spray a lot of ammo on target before it registers.  While it's not 100% certain, the current system favors lower pings and bigger guns.
B. If the other pilot loses a wing but manages to hold it  together longer.. he gets the kill.
Great.  So if the other pilot decides to ride his bird into the ground, he gets a kill, while the silk rider gets a "kilt"? We're substituting one game of chicken (who'll flinch first on HO) with another (who'll bail first)?  What sense is that?

C. There simply is no solution to the HO "scoring" debate.
Nonsense.  make the player have to "sit out" 30 seconds after bailing (from moment of bailout), crashing or exploding.  In that period, keep accumulating kills.  That way, you make them pay a tolerable penalty for dying, limit vulchees, and all on the excuse that you need to keep the scoring "above boards"

D. So.. once again. If you don't like the way kills are asigned in an HO... avoid them more.
And what about furballs? This morning Easymo in his cannon hawg whacked my La5, but as I was too low to bail out, I rode it into the ground.  A shifty connect and high lag bought me an extra second. In that period he got whacked.  I died and no kill was awarded.

E. "idiocy" is figuring you already know every way to avoid them.
Lessee:
   1. Don't attack someone's 12 ock.
   2. Don't get yourself into a situation where you're co-E or worse with any con whatsoever, especially ones you're not engaged with.
   3. Don't fly near guys warping all over the place
   4. Don't fly if you're warping all over the place

That covers about all the HOs I've encountered.  I will, of course, concede the point that it's a conceited pilot who claims he doesn't need constant training.

[Minotaur]

 

A. Nobody really knows what will happen in an HO.
Negative. Both pilots spray a lot of ammo on target before it registers. While it's not 100% certain, the current system favors lower pings and bigger guns.

LOL  

Not always, but at one time I did think as you do.  I now have a cable modem and usually my ping time is 70-90ms vice being connected at 49k with a ping time of 250-250ms via a dial-up.

Since I got my cable modem, I tend to NOT "Get the Kill".  From my FE I am pounding as much as I am getting pounded, during HO's or attacking BUFF's.  Time after time I watch the other players plane explode, then I explode, then the other player gets the the kill message.  

This happens about 95% of the time these days.  Prior to that, I "Got the Kill" for about 50% of the time under the same circumstances.

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Minotaur:
Since I got my cable modem, I tend to NOT "Get the Kill".  From my FE I am pounding as much as I am getting pounded, during HO's or attacking BUFF's.  Time after time I watch the other players plane explode, then I explode, then the other player gets the the kill message.  

This happens about 95% of the time these days.  Prior to that, I "Got the Kill" for about 50% of the time under the same circumstances.

Mino,  I get almost the exact same percentages of deaths in a HO.  I've been a long time believer that being on a fast connection is actually a disadvantage when it comes to AH.  I tested with a old 56K v.90 3com modem and I got the kill around 50% of the time in a HO, I went back to using my T1 and I get the kill about 5% of the time.

I've tested the lag advantages/disadvantages as recently as last night with some friends on 128K ISDN in the training arena.  My results were very similar I could place hit sprites ALL over them and actually only hear maybe 1 ping (I was on the phone with them).  While we were testing I told him everytime I got a hit sprite on him and about 75% of the time he heard nothing and took zero damage.  In the reverse situation I took ALL of the damage he dealt.  If he saw a hit sprite I heard a ping or took damage.

ISDN dealt 100% damage to me and only took  25% damage from me.
T1 dealt 25% damage and took 100% damage.

While I'm on the T1 I never even get close to a HogC because if they even fire in my general direction I seem to explode.  One of these days I need to play AH on a modem for a entire tour and see if my scores are better.

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Apache]

A thought from someone new to AH. Why not get more realistic. If you don't land it, you don't get credit.

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Apache
++Renegade Nation++

[Pongo]

Hi Apache.
What is realisic about that? If you could be awarded the Knights cross after you were dead you could sure be awareded a kill.
The aircraft of the aces books often mention howmany kills a pilot got on his last mission....
Welcome!

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[wolf37]

hi all:

the problem is the lag, and i never get to bail from a HO, im just dead, and i have brought this up about getting credit for a kill.   (kill or be killed)

i took some fire there as well, butt is still smoking.


blue skies all

[funked]

Pongo is right.  If you shoot down a plane, you should get a kill regardless of your fate.

P.S.  Ditches should be kills too.
P.P.S.  No kill should be awarded if Robo-Ack kills somebody.

[AKSeaWulfe]

This response is to Funked...
>>P.S. Ditches should be kills too.<<
This opens up a whole new can of worms. In real war there were various categories for "kills"(actually victories but hey we're not getting techinical here.. or are we?:-)). There is destroyed(blown up or pilot bails or plane crashes etc) then there's damaged(ditched, partially disabled, but still flies home) and then there's other categories. Honestly, if everyone wants a ditch as a kill I can sway either way and I can sway either way on the topic this thread is about(getting a kill after being killed), my viewpoint on the current topic(as gatt stated way up top about I THINK setting up scoring for discouraging HOs) is that there's really nothing you can do to discourage HOs unless no one gets the kill(which would be silly if both bailed, or one lived etc). Alright now back to the topic at hand. Really a ditch would be tallied as disabled or damaged in a real world situation, so that would probably count as an assist in the current scoring setup, which would make more sense than a full kill. Obviously a pilot with enough skill to land a plane that has one or more control surfaces missing and/or damaged engine apparently had enough skill(or speed....) to get away from his opponent and be able to ditch. Therefore the "victor" doesn't deserve a "kill" as the plane is not killed, but disabled. So perhaps rather than a kill, an assist should be awarded for a ditch(which I think most people could agree on as being legit, because you worked on damaging him, so why not get some credit for putting him out of action?)
Just my 30$/month on the issue.
-SW


[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 04-05-2000).]

[funked]

"Really a ditch would be tallied as disabled or damaged in a real world situation"

Negative.  The Luftwaffe counted Allied planes that were shot and forced to crash land over the Continent as kills.  I'm pretty sure the other countries scored them the same way.

[Duckwing6]

Talking about HO's favoring the bigger guns and the lower lag ..
I got ADLS and usuall have about 180 ping (across the pond) flew the C-Hog extensively last tour and usually died about 50% of the HO's i got into.. only about 20% of the HO#si got the kill. I changed to the D hog and plan to fly it exclusively in this Tour and funny i get way more kills with it in HO's.  I think the bigger ammount of bullets in the air increase the chance of scoring a pilot kill or taking out something "very ital" in the front of the A/C.

Re: Dicch should count as kill... Yea if you ditch behind enemy lines it's a kill if you ditch behind friendly it's not .. too bad nobody knows where enemy lines are..

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Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew

[Ghosth]

After reading this whole thread I have had an idea. Mind you this is going to throw a few monkey wrenches into the works but here goes.

What would happen if in order to claim a kill you had to return to base and make a good landing. Rounds fired & planes shot down information is "Held" until your back on the ground. What would that change do to this whole HO/score question?

First, it gives those who want to the incentive to fly more historicly.The incentive to take your time & set up your attack. To fly with a wingman, communicate more. To find a safe field at which to take off & land away from the action.

Second it comes down to ACM & tatics, if you want a kill you'll have to fly in such a way to increase your odds of getting one in such a way that you have a chance to RTB.

Last, those who chose to ignore all such things as score, ACM, & whatever have the ability to do so. But, they gather no points & gain nothing unless they land their kills.

A ditch would hold your existing streak/score. If you took damage before ditching it should reward the person who dealt that damage. Providing that he manages to land safely.

Gone are the days of fly, die, respawn, fly.

Furballs would be something to be flown above & try to pick off the unwary target fixated plane. Rather than something that everyone dives into willy nilly.

I'm not saying it would be easy to do, or even that we should.

As long as your at it you might as well throw in an additional penalty for dieing. Like haveing to ferry a plane from the country's main field closer to where the action is.
10 minutes anyway of time to reflect on your mistakes of the last sortie.



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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels

[Dinger]

Interesting ideas.
Frankly, I don't care if I'm proven wrong on my theory concerning the advantage of Cannons and low ping.  If the case is the opposite, my point still holds: namely, that it ain't random.
As for scoring, my personal preference is for something as close to "historical" kill-tallying as possible.  Ditches of disabled planes (no engine, fuel exhaustion with leak, or catastrophic struc. failure), bails and explosions should award kills, regardless of whether the pilot survived.  Kills should be tallied for the previous sortie up until the point where the pilot begins the next (hits "fly").
From there on, use social control to address the "proper ACM" issue.
(and come to think of it, some of the HO artists out there are pretty high ping)

[Apache]

 

Originally posted by Ghosth:


What would happen if in order to claim a kill you had to return to base and make a good landing. Rounds fired & planes shot down information is "Held" until your back on the ground. What would that change do to this whole HO/score question?

Ghosth, I tried to say the same thing a few posts earlier, but my use of the word "realistic" was apparently more in contention than the issue. I agree with your thought, as I believe the issue is to attempt to reduce HO's.

Agreeing with Pongo, kills were awarded posthumously, however, they didn't (unfortunately) have the option to come back up as we do.

If one was not awarded a kill unless safely landed, it is my opinion that the player-killer mentality would be reduced. We would then have a more rea...uh, a flight/combat/historic flight sim where pilots use proper ACM (and all the things that go with it, ya'll know what I mean   ).


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Apache
++Renegade Nation++

[This message has been edited by Apache (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Wanker]

That is a very interesting idea, Ghost. Imagine the rush to rtb safely if your kills weren't displayed in the radio buffer until you landed!

Here's an example of what the buffer may look like in your scenario:

"4 kills by Ghosth of the 332 Flying Mongrels", and on your buffer, you'd also get a list of your victims, in the order you shot them down in that sortie.

An idea of pure genius Ghost!  

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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

[danish]

Great idea Ghosth!

danish

[This message has been edited by danish (edited 04-05-2000).]