Author Topic: Please stop this HO thing!  (Read 3827 times)

Offline gatt

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Please stop this HO thing!
« on: April 02, 2000, 03:53:00 PM »
Sometimes you really cant avoid HO's, especially against cannon armed monsters.

A lot of times I cut in pieces the other guys (yes, I see flashes, pieces, smoke and explosions, my squad mates tell me the foe died) but he gets the kill. I die, he dies, he gets the kill.

So, do I have to loose a kill becouse he dies half a second later? Or becouse he has a better connx? Why the hell cant we both get the kill like in WarBirds? Ahhh, I really hate this thing  


Gatt
4^Stormo CT
     



[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-02-2000).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

eskimo

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2000, 05:19:00 PM »
I agree.
I have seen on occasion the wings rip off the other plane before I have even heard a ping on mine, yet he gets the kill, I die.  I am one of the few that also often feels that the other guy got gyped when I get the credit and he doesen't, but we both trashed each other and bailed/died.  

I vote for more mutual kills.

eskimo

[This message has been edited by eskimo (edited 04-02-2000).]

Offline Ghosth

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2000, 05:47:00 PM »
I agree the scoreing needs to be changed.
Even if you die if the other guy goes down you should at least get the kill.

From what I've read however it may not be that easy to change.

As to HO's, they happen. I've been on both ends and it does't take a cannon armed AC to rip you up. Some of the p51 drivers are real good at single pass HO's.

Come to the fight High & if nothing else at least you have more options.

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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels

funked

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2000, 06:01:00 PM »
Yep the scoring should change, pronto.

Offline Camel

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2000, 06:30:00 PM »
Im not sure I agree,

Im from the school of, You go HO, you get what you deserve! Basicaly I dont want it to be encouraged by getting a reward. Its a gamble, as it should be.

Last night on my first sortie I was hanging around 21 defending it with a few others. It wasnt in big trouble so we all had abit of alt. I was working on a 109's 6 till I got to d200, as I squeezed the trigger a team mate came in HO on the 109 that was about to die, and I ended up shooting myself(kill shooter). I died, the 109 died, the HO'er lived.

I want nothing to change that will encourage HO's

Offline AKDejaVu

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2000, 06:44:00 PM »
I couldn't agree more Camel.

Had the same thing happen to me on more than one occasion.

AKDejaVu

Offline Ripsnort

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2000, 08:04:00 PM »
Hmmm, I was Pro-Co Death when I first played AH, (as Warbirds is now) but now I find myself leaning towards the "Play Russian Roulette or Fly ACM"..after all, it's a bigger gamble on both sides to go HO in AH due to the fact that only one of you is most likely to get the kill.  

Jury's still out, I can adjust to either way.

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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
=CO=II/JG2~Richthofen~
Communications Officer
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"Experience is a hard teacher because she
gives the test first, the lesson afterwards"

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 04-02-2000).]

funked

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2000, 08:24:00 PM »
Under the current scoring system, I can parachute to safety while my opponent plunges to his death but he gets a kill and I don't.

Sorry, that is PORKED.

In real life he'd get a grave, and I'd get a kill awarded after the Catalina picked me up!

Offline gatt

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2000, 01:02:00 AM »
Camel,
we want the same thing. I dont encourage HO, I usually fly C.205 and P51, not so good at HO against F4U-1C and Spitfires.

I hate HO's. I'm pretty sure that if you get the kill against your heavy damaged HO-lover, a lot of them will be more careful in the future.

A "gamble"? Where is the gamble in a HO? It should be a suicide for both pilots. Where the hell is realism in the actual model? I dont play QUAKE I play AcesHigh.

Regards,
Gatt
4th Stormo CT

P.S.: sorry, I was so pissed off that I havent posted in one of the other two threads about HO.

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-03-2000).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

AKSeaWulfe

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2000, 01:37:00 AM »
I have no intent of stirring up and argument or leaving bad feelings. However, here is my opinion on headons.

gatt(I think), you say you play Aces High and not Quake. Good, admitted one thing: you play a sim. The question I have for you is, do you want to continue to play a sim or actually end up playing Quake? You see by limiting the factors and levels we can play on you are in fact invoking a quake environment. Not being able to have a shot at a head on is quake like. Everyone(no matter what they fly and what armament they have) should be allowed the same chances as a WWII pilot actually had. They should be allowed to fly the entire map(fuel permitting) if they want to. They should be able to fly any which way they want(gravity permitting). They should be allowed to shoot at what they want(ammo situation and intelligence permitting). Simple fact: HOing is tactically, not stupid, but down right mindless. YOu have a chance at not taking fire or you have a chance at exchanging fire with an enemy. More often than not both of you will take fire and the one with better aim(and better armament) will win. This is a known fact by everyone and it's also a combat proven fact in WWII. There are actual recorded instances where WWII and WWI pilots took the HO. I believe somewhere on this BBS someone stated something about the Flying Tigers being told to take HO shots against Claudes(the A6M Zero statement was incorrect.. 20mms were not advisable to take hits from ;-). The obvious victor would be the one with more punch, that being the P40C(I believe that's the model the Chenault's squadron flew, 2 .50s above the engine and 2 in each wing, altogether SIX .50s punching into a light armored plane). Gatt, you then stated that "A lot of times I cut in pieces the other guys (yes, I see flashes, pieces, smoke and explosions, my squad mates tell me the foe died) but he gets the kill. I die, he dies, he gets the kill." This leads me to believe you too participated in the head on. So why are you asking others to stop this head on nonsense when you yourself are participating in it? That's outright hypocricy(sp?) if you ask me. I will admit I took head ons the first few times I flew Aces High. It was sort of an experiment to see what the damage model and ballistics model was like. I'm by no means a newbie to combat simulations. For my resume I have experience in the first Confirmed Kill(v.91 to whenever it became brand W till 2.0), Fighter Duel, and a few other games in between then and now. Back then HOs were very uncommon. Why? Close to 100% of the flyers were hardcore combat pilots. They read up on history, ACM and other such things so they could be the best they could be at the game. I believe we are on the same side on this issue. It's the players that make the experience, not the game. Putting in various limits to something that is supposed to simulate combat is rediculous, it defeats the purpose of it. Therefore, it's up to the players of the game to make it a simulation or a game. YOu have a choice(not just you gatt, everyone) between that 1 kill(HO) and perhaps a 3-kill sortie. You make a stupid choice and take the HO, well you can kiss the fun 3-kill sortie good-bye. Look in ANY ACM or history book and you will ALWAYS find that the point of attack that everyone agrees on to be the best is the direct 6 O'clock position. Why? Because, what is he honestly going to do? Piss in the wind and hope it deters you from blowing his silly bellybutton to bits? :-) Fly smart and I guarantee you will have the best sorties of your life and the MOST fun ever. Fly stupid and you will have the worst time in a game. I've seen posts squeaking and moaning about the damage model, head ons and other such nonsense. I have one question for you guys: WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU SILLY FOOLS DOING LETTING HIM SHOOT YOU IN THE FIRST PLACE?????? I'm by no means the best, maybe average... However I've been doing this kinda thing for a long enough period of time that I know the difference between tactics and stupidity. HOs and letting someone get a shot on you are STUPID, everything else is tactics. If you are getting shot, I'd suggest you quit your moaning and read up on ACM. I know when I get killed I learn from that experience and will never let that situation happen again. For example, head ons(which is what this particular thread is about), I do NOT take them unless I absolutly have to. And if I die, it's my dumb bellybutton mistake that got me killed, not the damage model, not the physics(atmosphere) model, not HTC, not the other players CPU speed, vid card, RAM or connection.. my STUPID mistake.

I LOVE simulations. I LOVE this particular simulation. I would NEVER want to see anything that's currently modelled changed. I may squeak about it, but it's no doubt because I'm pissed at myself.(I apologize to hblair for that incident I had with him.. my AH callsign is AKSWulfe, again my apoligies, I hope you can understand my situation.. I was being straffed and too ignorant to move ;-) Remember guys, it's up to YOU to make the game the way you want it to be. It's not up to HTC or the other guy, it's up to you(AND the other guy, but you guys must work together ;-). In summary, I want that idiot(<g> ) to take the HO on me, because once he misses, I'm on his bellybutton shooting him to bits and he'll learn from that engagement.. HOs are a tactically stupid and the 6 O'clock position is THE tactically SMART position to kill from. :-)

HTC keep plugging away, this game is amazing.
-SW
AKSeaWulfe+
ps: gatt, I in no way mean any ill will towards you or anyone else in this community. this post is just to hopefully "open some eyes".
pps: If you take me HO, you die, it may be slow but I guarantee it will be humiliating ;-)

Offline gatt

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2000, 04:26:00 AM »

AkSeaWulfe,

Nothing personal, but pls, read my words again. I dont want to stop people being able to run for head-on's. Heck, how could I?

All I want is to get the kill against that flaming wreck I could not be able to avoid. And this: if and only if I shot him down.

How can he only get a kill while hanging on his chute or falling in flames like me? This is QUAKEish.

So, let people go HO, but they have to know that they will get a "you have been killed by XXXXXX" like me.

Simple question: in the real thing you cut in pieces the guy that shot you down. Did you get the kill or not?
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Dinger

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2000, 04:32:00 AM »
Some of you folks out there just don't bother reading before pontificating, eh?  (Ok, AKSeaWulfe, I admit, I decided that you missed the point and didn't bother reading all of that long-winded claptrap)

Gatt is not saying that the HO should be a valid tactic, nor is he saying that he takes the HO.  I've flown with him many times, and let's just say he's more sophisticated on the merge than that.
What he is saying is that the current scoring system encourages HOs by an unfair distribution of the scoring.
It's not random; it's not roulette.  Take these two situations:
A. Cannon Hawg and P51 with equal ping times HO.  Cannon Hawg applies a lethal dose of ammo in 1 second; p-51 fires for a second, and only succeeds in shearing off a wing at the root.  The Hawg driver, having the bigger cannons, gets the kill, notwithstanding the fact that his plane is just as dead.
B. Cowboy Bob ADSL in Grapevine Texas gets a ping time of 15 ms, while some poor slob on an equatorial launch platform gets 800 across a satellite link.  In an HO, Cowboy Bob can get his kill packets to HTC a lot quicker, and will always get the kill; nevertheless our slob friend will send in a just as valid set of hit packets, and obliterate Cowboy Bob's ride.
C. Two schmucks HO and blow off some wings.  They ride their planes down, hoping that the other hits the ground first, so they get the kill.


Offline AKDejaVu

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2000, 06:06:00 AM »
This whole debate is pointless.  Two people that know they are going to die are arguing over who gets the kill.

If it really concerns you, figure out new better ways to avoid it.

Other than that, this thread is simply an argument over why someone might have a better k/d ratio.

AKDejaVu

Offline Vulcan

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2000, 07:00:00 AM »
Why has he got pantyhose for his squad insignia?

-vlkn-

Offline gatt

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Please stop this HO thing!
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2000, 07:30:00 AM »
Yeah, it could be a k/d ratio reason as well, but it isnt. I wonder why you guys take this remark personally. I usually dont whine, but IMHO this thing is really unhistorical.

Eheh Vulcan,
if those are the pantyhoses you know and that your (lets say) girlfriend usually uses, I really can imagine what a macho you are   oh my God!

[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 04-03-2000).]
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown