Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[Crumpp]

Source of this BS?

No Bf-109G6's received MW-50 EXCEPT for a few R2 photoreconnaissance versions.

So the vast quantities of MW-50 powered G6's before July '44 are simply fiction.  An untruth does not get any truer with the number of times it is repeated.  Only a "possibility" existed which there is exists no proof.



There is no such animal as a MW-50 equipped Bf-109G6 in a JG.  They are ALL Bf-109G14's and they did not received either the boost system or the designation until Jul '44.



Now to your graphically representation of nothing....

You have the deck speed of the Bf-109K4 at 1.8 ata as 595kph!!

Well over what it could actually do.



Confirmed by flight test graphs:



So 580kph was the TOP speed of the Bf-109K4 at sea level.

The FW-190A8/801S could do 595kph at sea level.

Oh, and btw 1700 K-4s were produced, Crummp, 856 of them up to dec 31st 1944. Apprx. 450 of these were already issued to the troops by that time,  supplemented by ca 535 of the 'bastard' G-10d, all fresh from the factories!

Very similar program is emplaced between the FW-190A9 and the conversion of the FW-190A8 to the 801TS.  

You have to remember production was set in very early 1942 to 1/3 FW-190's and 2/3 Bf-109's. Now the majority of the fighters on the Western Front were FW-190's from 1942 till the end.

It is interesting that by 1944 the production ratio had slipped to almost 50 percent!

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Fw190 monthly  production numbers



Total Fw 190 production (This data is from FW factory production book and C-Amt Monatsmeldung so should be pretty solid. )

To 30.11.43
A-1 (102)
A-2/3 (952)
A-4 (905)
A-5 (675)
A-6 (783)
A-7 (27)
B-1 (5)
F-1 (18)
F-2 (270)
F-3 (366)
G-1 (50)
G-2 (625)
G-3 (329) Total 5107
December-missing A-6 (SWAG approx. 200)
72 A-7
5 F-3
58 G-3 Total 5442
January-117 A-6
199 A-7
1 F-3
66 G-3 Total 5825
February-45 A-6
137 A-7
55 F-3
53 G-3 Total 6115
March- 17 A-6
182 A-7
83 A-8
5 F-3
98 F-8
44 G-3 Total 6544
April-1 A-6
8 A-7
347 A-8
2-A-9
265 F-8
83 G-8/R 5 Total 7250
May-492 A-8
15 A-9
177 F-8 Total 7934
June-430 A-8
103 A-8/R2
21 A-9
390 F-8 Total 8878
July –502 A-8
180 A-8/R2
70 A-9
515 F-8 Total 10145
August- 648 A-8
202 A-8/R2
30 A-9
511 F-8 (1391) Total 11536
September-465 A-8
159 A-8/R2
14 A-8/R11
122 A-9
55 A-9/R11
40 D-9
536 F-8 Total 12927
October-293 A-8
123 A-8/R2
79 A-8/R11
14 A-9
80 A-9 R11
89 D-9
412 F-8 Total 14017
November-482 A-8
88 A-8/R2
33 A-8/R11
99 A-9
58 A-9/R11
237 D-9
294 F-8 (1291) Total 15308
December-missing 6 (SWAG approx. 1250) Total 16558
January-328 A-8
51 A-8/R2
73 A-9
73 A-9/R11
228 D-9
76 D-9/ R11
220 F-8
147 F-9 (1196) Total 17754
February to Capitulation-missing (SWAG approx. 1550)
Total approx. 19300

numbers posted by ArtieBob http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=597

[Kurfürst]

Originally posted by Crumpp
No Bf-109G6's received MW-50 EXCEPT for a few R2 photoreconnaissance versions.

Well Knoke`s diary mentions, on 28th April 1944 :

"We received new aircraft with high altitude supercharges, fresh from the factory. These planes are also fitted with the MW device of which`s development I also participated."


So the vast quantities of MW-50 powered G6's before July '44 are simply fiction.  An untruth does not get any truer with the number of times it is repeated.  Only a "possibility" existed which there is exists no proof.

Are you and Goebbels related in any way?

As for you source, it`s a joke.

The guy who wrote doesn`t have the slightest idea of designations used in the 109. His "G-6/R3". Only Rustzustand were noted in the designation, Rustsatz, like Rustatz III., installation of a droptank, or Rustsatz VI, gondola guns did NOT change the desingation etc.... who`s that guy anyway?

Besides you don`t even understand your rather poor source, because it does not state anywhere MW was not used before mid-44, only that it become a standard by then.

Prien/Rodeike notes : "Equally common was the retroffiting of MW 50 injection, resulting in the G-6/U3. The only external difference between U2 and U3 was the servicing triangle painted beneath the filler hatch, which specified mixture to be used. Conversion from U2 to U3 was a simple matter." Page 108.


Now to your graphically representation of nothing....
You have the deck speed of the Bf-109K4 at 1.8 ata as 595kph!!
Well over what it could actually do.

Really, Messerscmitt must have gone mad, because he says so in this graph :

(Image removed from quote.)


So 580kph was the TOP speed of the Bf-109K4 at sea level.

Nope, 595 kph on 1.8ata. 607 kph on 1.98ata.


The FW-190A8/801S could do 595kph at sea level.

That`s way slower than what the K-4 was capable of :

(Image removed from quote.)

I told you will love that graph.

[Angus]

You won't love it when I've cropped that JL165 out of it and plonked a proper Spitty into it instead

[Crumpp]

That is about correct for the Focke Wulf.  However it does not look like they include some of the subcontracted factories.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

"We received new aircraft with high altitude supercharges, fresh from the factory. These planes are also fitted with the MW device of which`s development I also participated."

I am not surprised Izzy. They were constantly trying to get it to work acceptably in the 109.  I can find no record of DB605A MW 50 equipped Bf-109's.   However as posted above they were not cleared for  general use until July '44 timeframe.  None were fitted to Bf-109G6's.

If it came "fresh from the factory" the other possibility is Knoke has his dates mixed up.  He is only a few months off.

Third possibilty is these are Bf-109G6/U2's with GM-1 and Knoke has his boost systems confused.  The U2's did come out in "early '44" according to Rodeike.  After Jul '44 they were approved for MW-50 use and it was very easy to convert them.  

 

As the air war progressed through 1942 and 1943, newer variants of the 109 were introduced in an effort to maintain a competitive advantage.  From an aerodynamic standpoint, incremental changes were introduced with the original G series, and a seminal change became evident with the introduction of the G-6 variant in early 1943.  This model introduced higher-caliber cowl guns (13mm MG131s vs. 7.7mm MG17s on earlier models), but substantial modifications were required to the airframe in order to accommodate this change.  Aerodynamically, the aircraft suffered from the addition of two large circular fairings covering the feed chutes for the MG131s, and the increased weight of the weapons and their ammunition led to a further slight decline in performance.  Clearly, more power was required.

DB605ASM:    Provisions for the use of MW50 additive with 96 octane C3 fuel.  It was possible to use standard 87 octane B4 fuel with this engine, in which case the use of MW50 was absolutely required to obtain the best possible power and avoid engine damage.  The compression ratio of the engine was raised as well, to 8.3:1 (left) and 8.5:1 (right), giving 1,800 h.p. at 1.7 ata at takeoff. Other changes introduced with this variant included a larger capacity oil cooler (Fo987) and redesigned cylinder head covers, both of which were fitted to the DB605D as well. (source: Mermet, p. 9/10)  The Fo987 was first evaluated on G-6/AS W.Nr. 16550 (KT+DX) in June 1944 (source: Monogram Luftwaffe Interiors, p. 155).

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

Nope, 595 kph on 1.8ata. 607 kph on 1.98ata.

Nice Power Point slide but it is FAR from original documentation.  Please produce the doc saying 595 for the 109K4 because the flight test's just DO NOT show it!

1.98ata according to Butch2K, a Bf-109 expert, was not approved for use until Feb' 45.

Frankly your willingness to manipulate the data severly undermines your crediability.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
That is about correct for the Focke Wulf.  However it does not look like they include some of the subcontracted factories.

Crumpp

Is this directed towards me?

Would not the C-Amt Monatsmeldung include non Fw construction (ie subcontracted factories)?

[Crumpp]

Would not the C-Amt Monatsmeldung include non Fw construction (ie subcontracted factories)?

Yes
I don't know Milo why it is not included.  The only constructions I see that are missing are late war subcontracts.  This comes from documentation I discovered in the index card listings at the Smithsonian.  Understand they still have rooms of microfilm that is not even cataloged yet.  Unfortunately the microfilm is going bad and it has become a race against time to catalog it.  

Think of it like the WNr. listings.  They are official documents but frequently the evidence shows they have been appended without accurate records of the changes.  That is why bookie frequently updates his project.  Frankly the Luftwaffe record base is very poor.

The subcontractors numbers explain why the FW-190A9 varient becomes much more common on the Geschwader listings than the C-Amt Monatsmeldung list's.

In fact Milo, check out the Dora numbers according to that document.  They are off as well.  Naudet can probably clear that up better than me.

BTW that document shows 1017 FW-190 varients equipped with the 801S motor.  That leaves roughly 4 motors per airframe produced.  The Luftwaffe could have converted 80 percent of the FW-190A8 airframes produced from August '44 and still had a maintenance reserve of 1/4 of engines produced.  That lines up very closely with the number of 801S we are finding.

So 580kph was the TOP speed of the Bf-109K4 at sea level.

Nope, 595kph on 1.8ata. 607 kph on 1.98ata.


The FW-190A8/801S could do 595kph at sea level.  

According to Messerschmitt then ONLY the Bf-109K4 EQUALS the FW-190A8/801S.  In Feb '45 the FW-190D9 was the 1.98ata 109K4's contemprary.

Same conclusion as the last thread that hashed this issue Izzy.  Only the 109K4 equals the FW-190A.  All other 109's are far behind the FW-190A in low altitude performance.


 

The guy who wrote doesn`t have the slightest idea of designations used in the 109. His "G-6/R3". Only Rustzustand were noted in the designation, Rustsatz, like Rustatz III., installation of a droptank, or Rustsatz VI, gondola guns did NOT change the desingation etc.... who`s that guy anyway?

Look again, the author is talking about Umrustsatz's.  Your the one who appears not to know the difference.  Knoke's aircraft coming "fresh from the factory" makes it an umrustsatz as well.  There were NO MW50 umrustsatz's produced for the G6 except a photorecon varient.
Until Jul'44 that is when the designation was changed to G14 and the existing Bf-109G6 were allowed to use MW-50.  As stated before changing a U2 to a U3 was not a difficult mechanical job.

Prien/Rodeike notes : "Equally common was the retroffiting of MW 50 injection, resulting in the G-6/U3. The only external difference between U2 and U3 was the servicing triangle painted beneath the filler hatch, which specified mixture to be used. Conversion from U2 to U3 was a simple matter." Page 108.

Exactly.  Check out the dates Prien/Rodeike give for the Bf-109G6/U2 service entry. "Sometime in Early 1944"...

Which is absolutely correct.  GM-1 was introduced in "early" '44.  Knoke recieved his in April '44.  In Jul '44 they were allowed to convert to MW-50.

Crumpp

[Angus]

The RAF used 100 octane fuel sometimes "early" in 1940.
I.e. in fact, they started with some in January, had some more during the BoB, hitting 50% somewhere late summer/early autumn perhaps and were to 100% in November.

Sort of a parallel.....

[Crumpp]

I think you are correct about the fielding times Angus.  The Luftwaffe were mediocre at best when it came to logistics and absolutely horrible strategic planners.

Here is one for the "rapid" fielding theories for the Bf-109.

From the Luftwaffe's own After Action Review of the Air War by some of the Luftwaffe's top leadership.  At least the ones that did not commit massive war crimes.





Crumpp

[butch2k]

The Monatsmeldungen include all factories producing fresh a/c and on a separate sheets the a/c coming from reparation centers or conversion centers.

For instance, if i check the Juni 1944 production (fighters only)  i see :
Fw 190A-8
F.W. : 250
Ago : 163
L.B.B. : 10
W.F.G. : 7

Fw 190A-8/R2
G.F.W. : 103

Fw 190A-9
Arb.Gem. : 21

Fw 190 Repairs :
Hasser : 23
Gotenhafen : 37
Esp.Higa : 26
WFG.N'ham : 16
Ago Cravant : 20
Ago Tours : 11

[Crumpp]

The Monatsmeldungen include all factories producing fresh a/c and on a separate sheets the a/c coming from reparation centers or conversion centers.

It does have a breakdown.  However it is missing a subcontractor for the FW-190A9.  I have corresponded with several folks in the field of aviation history over this issue, Butch.

Rechecked the documents and there is no doubt.  Your missing the same subcontractor for the FW-190A8 as well.

If you want I will speak to you over the phone about this issue thru the White 1 Foundation.

Crumpp

[butch2k]

Let me guess, Dornier FFA ?

[Crumpp]

You don't have NDW listed, true.

Crumpp

[butch2k]

There are good reasons for that... i suppose you know them