Author Topic: Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design  (Read 31621 times)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #540 on: January 23, 2005, 04:22:42 AM »
Izzy would....
Wish I had that on tape.

Anyway, something debated by Izzy...
"
Bear in mind that his squadron got mauled so badly in the BoB that it was pulled out of battle after 6 days of fighting."

SQN: III JG 52. Where did 8 come from?
Started engagements 24/6/40, withdrawn due to heavy losses on the 29th.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #541 on: January 23, 2005, 06:05:04 AM »
Ease of flying went to the Spit. The consensus was it took a veteran pilot to master the 109, but that the Spit was more forgiving to a newbie.

Did Doe ever fly a 109 and did Bob ever fly a Spitfire ? No.
Did the Spitfire had single lever control system? No.
Did the Spitfire had well harmonized controls? No.
Did the Spitfire had any better stall characteristics ? No.
Was the Spitfire easier to land and takeoff ? Yes.

So maybe they meant landing, don`t you think? You REALLY, REALLY have to find an actual 109 pilot who would say the 109 was hard to fly in air...

ie.

"The results may be summarized by saying that the stalling behaviour, flaps up and down, is excellent. Both rudder and ailerons are effective right down to the stall, which is very gentle, the wing only falling about 10 degrees and the nose falling with it. There is no tendency to spin. With flaps up the ailerons snatch while the slots are opening, and there is a buffeting on the ailerons as the stall is approached.. With flaps down there is no aileron snatch as the slots open, and no pre-stall aileron buffeting. There is no warning of the stall, flaps down. From the safety viewpoint this is the sole adverse stalling feature; it is largely off-set by the innocuous behaviour at the stall and by the very high degree of fore and aft stability on the approach glide. "

"The aircraft delights in being pulled into hard manuevering turns at these slower speeds. As the slats pop out you feel a slight "notching" on the stick and you can pull more until the whole airframe is buffeting quite hard. A little more and you will drop a wing, but you have to be crass to do it unintentionally."

"The '109 is one of the most controllable aircraft that I have flown at slow speed around finals, and provided you don't get too slow is one of the easiest to three point. It just feels right !"

I could go on, qouting whole pages...



Doe remarked on the cramped feeling and the poor visibilty. He was in Black 6 the 109G2 of the RAF Museum.
Ekkehard Bob was in a Spitfire Vb cockpit . His comment was on how roomy it was and how wonderful the visibilty was. He then said he'd really like to fly the airplane.


Yep, the 'cramped' feeling was due to the tilted seat and the raised legs - both INTENTIONAL reasoning behind the design, and the British copied the idea to make the Spitfire cramped as well. Oh, not really, it was much better for resisting Gs. As a result a Spitfire pilot could not pull the plane as hard as a 109 pilot, he would black out much sooner with the 'armchair' seat.
The 'wonderful' visibility of the Spitfire is a good joke really. One reason the Russians refused it was it`s awful rear visibilty. Why would they put a mirror on it, why would they replace the canopy if it was so 'wonderful', huh? Maybe english pilots could see through the fuselage and head armor behind them? I guess not.


And the final result was they were both good airplanes and that it would fall to the pilot to make the difference.


A rather typical sentence in such movie, don`t you think ? Not that I don`t agree with it, but still..


An interesting sidebar was the discussion of turning circle. They believed that with average pilots the Spit would out turn the 109, but that if flown to the limit, the 109 could match the Spit.


That`s propably true, Hanna, Clostermann, Kaiser etc..

Tough to argue with two guys who'd been there, done that

Yep, even more tough to argue with dozens of guys who'd been there, done that. ;)
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Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #542 on: January 23, 2005, 06:22:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Anyway, something debated by Izzy...
"Bear in mind that his squadron got mauled so badly in the BoB that it was pulled out of battle after 6 days of fighting."

SQN: III JG 52. Where did 8 come from?
Started engagements 24/6/40, withdrawn due to heavy losses on the 29th.


Source, reference, qoute? No?

What is III/JG 52, Angie ?
What is 8./JG 52, Angie ?
How is 8./JG 52 related to III./JG 52, Angie?

Appearantly you have no idea of that, but you come up with vast generalized claims about German fighter units in BoB, not even knowing their very basic structure and designations...
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Offline HoHun

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #543 on: January 23, 2005, 06:31:23 AM »
Hi Dan,

>An interesting sidebar was the discussion of turning circle.  They believed that with average pilots the Spit would out turn the 109, but that if flown to the limit, the 109 could match the Spit.

Well, it are comments like this one that make me despair about getting any useful information out of veterans.

Was ther any suggestion what exactly the above-average Me 109 pilot would do to be able to match a Spitfire's turning circle when flying to the limit?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Kurfürst

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #544 on: January 23, 2005, 06:35:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Now then second paragraph.
Rall claimed 3 Spitfires, all Soviet flown.
He clashed with them in the BoB, so he knew their looks and movements.
[/B]

Ok, so let`s make it clear for future, Gunther Rall, THE SOURCE of 99% of your 'germans were totally amazed by the Spitfire' claims, saw a few in 1940, and didn`t shot down any until 1943...? He shot down 3 in total.
How much his opinion weigths compared to Werner Moelders, who shot down 25?


BTW, just yesterday, you were doubting that he ever met any on the russian front. How is that status today? Are you ready to admit that you were completely wrong in your assumptions?


I said he could have easily met Yaks that were similiar in shape and performance. You are lying in your statements.


Out of the WWII aircraft taking off, the Spitty is about the quickest in the air.

Yep, right behind 109, just as good as the heavier 190. All LIGHTYEARS behind the Storch. :lol

It has generally lower wingloading than the 109, and equal power for the same ingloading, while with lower spanloading, so there is hardly any technical reason for it making a longer takeoff roll.

... and yet Eric Brown and others say it takeoff run was much shorter than the Spitfire`s. Get over it...
If your theory can`t match the facts, change the theory...


Then on to bad runways.
All had them, and narrow track aircraft like the Spit and 109 had their problems. I remember Guppy posting some data and pics of dreadful runways used by Spitfires.
I also have some text about runways in the winter rains of Tunisia if you want some. Basically as muddy as they went.
I can also dig up some data of completely overloaded Spit V's jumping of carriers OTW to Malta.....if preferred. Oh, only 150 yards there....


150 yards, Carrier against the wing -> + 50 km/h airspeed even when the engine is off. A fiesler storch could take off from there without even starting the engine. :p

As for the dreadful runways... the Russians had a choice what to use frontline.. the British didn`t (unless they`d want to rely on hopelessly inferior planes like warhawk etc.)


Quote

FYI, I have a very nice picture of a 109 on the nose (rough braking?), - on a concrete runway!
Landing accident, - maybe the guy thought he was in a Spitty... [/B]


Saying the 109 would never found itself on the nose is like saying the Spitfire wouldd never groundlooped...

BTW... I have a very nice 'Wochensau' showing 109s and 190Ds taking off from a prussian airfield in 1945.. now if you can find ANY Spitfire footage with even remotely similiar sucking conditions...
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Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #545 on: January 23, 2005, 08:21:49 AM »
OMG, Izzy, are you gone mad? Oh, no, you already were.
I can see the rising blood temperature in the steady increase of grammar mistakes, as well as the typical LIES, hehe  :D

Well, the staffel (which roughly equals a sqn) who got pulled out is
III./JG 52, source mein Flugbuch P 54.
The exact final words of the topic:
"aber die Kampfkraft sowohl der Staffel als auch der Gruppe ist so gesunken, dass wir von der front abgezogen werden mussen"

You translate please :D

Then this:
"What is III/JG 52, Angie ?
What is 8./JG 52, Angie ?
How is 8./JG 52 related to III./JG 52, Angie? "

I haven't got a clue. It gets referred to criss-cross....
 
BUT here is more:
p 349 has the move list, - Coquelles is entered on the 21/7, combat missions start on the 24th, transfer from Coquelles to Böblingen on the 30th.

So refuse as you like, this is actually the only very accurate data of a German squadron movement I have handy over this period, and it just happened to be moved out of combat due to heavy losses.
Of course this happened to the RAF also, but I remember you refusing persistently that this ever happened to the LW in the BoB.......

Guess the badly equipeed Winny-Poo boys still were some nuicance.....
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #546 on: January 23, 2005, 11:11:56 AM »
Angus, since Barbi would rather be his obnoxious ignorant self, throwing around the insults instead of explaining to you, here is:

JG >
 
I. Gruppe > 1.Staffel, 2 Staffel, 3 Staffel

II. Gruppe > 4 Staffel. 5 Staffel, 6 Staffel

III. Gruppe > 7 Staffel, 8 Staffel, 9 Staffel

So an a/c of 8./JG 52 also belongs to III./JG 52.


A Staffel = RAF squadron
A Gruppe = RAF Wing

For the RAF, a Typhoon from 143 Wing could be from 438 or 439 or 440 Sqd.

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #547 on: January 23, 2005, 11:56:58 AM »
Ok, thank you Milo.
Got it mixed up, I thought 8 would be the 8th staffel, which it is, and III would be the third.

Anyway, it's hard for him to digest that this actually happened, and harder still to debate it, since it actually happened.

So, at least the under equipped, poorly-trained Winny-Poo boys managed to shoot out a Staffel (or gruppe?) of the uber equipped highly trained LW in less than a week.

But you know, it was all too little, - too late

And they only operated in penny pocket numbers anyway....


:D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #548 on: January 23, 2005, 12:18:56 PM »
Angus, from another source.

July 24 1940 III./JG 52 lost its Kommandeur, (von Houwand) and 2 Staffelkapitaine in combat with Spitfires of #610 over Kent. The next day one of the replacement Staffelkapitaines was lost again to #610 over Folkstone. The other replacement Staffelkapitaine was Rall. With these and other losses III./JG 52 was withdrawn back to Germany before the month was out.

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #549 on: January 23, 2005, 12:26:13 PM »
TY again.
Had the data actually.
But the missing part was the one of 610 sqn.
I remember Rall saying that the BoB was really dreadful. Must have been, loosing so many close by persons in a matter of days.
Same happened in the RAF of course. I remember tales of squadrons that were rotated temporarily and new commanders assigned to bring all together again.
Of course this happened, and to both parties. Beliving anything else is just stupid, - some illusion of fanatics.
BTW, which known BoB pilots belonged to 610?
If you have a clue, or a hint, please post, will look up then.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MiloMorai

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #550 on: January 23, 2005, 12:43:04 PM »
Angus,

FltLt John Ellis became the Co of 610. In combat over Dover on July 24 he destroyed 2 109s from III./JG 52.

Plt Off Constintine Pegge was another 610 pilot.

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #551 on: January 23, 2005, 12:55:08 PM »
Nice and fast.
Was looking myself.
Stanford-Tuck was also with 610.
Now the Irony is that he met Rall right after the war, and they became very good friends.
Tuck also had a lifelong friendship with Galland, - -and those two were advisors on the making of the classic move "the Battle of Britain" Richard Attenborough, right?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #552 on: January 23, 2005, 02:23:00 PM »
Oh, an opinion of a USN Pilot who tested a Spitfire.
That was a tropic Spit VIII with a Merlin 66, top speed 420 mph at 21K, ceiling 41500 feet.
The RAF pilots trained with the USN at China Bay, mockfights and camera work, - the USN opponent being the Hellcats of Saratoga.
Major Bob Dosé tested the Mk VIII
After some aerobatics in the Spitty, he called the RAF guys up in the R/T and said "Say guys, how do I get to join the RAF?"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #553 on: January 23, 2005, 02:43:39 PM »
Yet more.
AFAIK Spitfires were launced from HMS Eagle otw to Malta.
They were overloaded, the launch range for Spitfires with drop tanks being 600 miles.
The Eagle was total 203 metres long. Don't know of the flight deck.
Speed was 18 kts cruise, 24 tops.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2005, 02:52:31 PM by Angus »
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Guppy35

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Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design
« Reply #554 on: January 23, 2005, 11:07:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Nice and fast.
Was looking myself.
Stanford-Tuck was also with 610.
Now the Irony is that he met Rall right after the war, and they became very good friends.
Tuck also had a lifelong friendship with Galland, - -and those two were advisors on the making of the classic move "the Battle of Britain" Richard Attenborough, right?


Nah, Stanford Tuck wasn't 610.  He was 92 then 257 Squadron

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