Spit vs. Messer : Design vs. Design

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
Does it include Bomber Command and Costal Command losses?

Does it include RAF aircraft destroyed on the ground?

Covers the losses suffered by RAF Fighter Command and the Luftwaffe engaged in the B of B.

Yes it does include those destroyed on the ground for the RAF.  No it doesn't include Bomber Command losses.

Blenheims, Defiants, Spits and Hurri's and at least one Whirlwind listed in the losses.

It's specific to those units of both sides engaged in the Battle of Britain.

I think it's why they broke out the 109 and 110 losses to seperate the fighter losses from the bombers.

Heckuva book btw.  Details much of the aviation archeology that's gone on to recover the wreckage of B of B aircraft as well as missing aircrew from both sides.

Dan/CorkyJr

[Angus]

Oh, jeez, got outtyped.
Anyway, will be posting the stuff I have.
Have fun lads

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
With the loss of 271 bombers (62 in daylight raids and 209 on night operations) I find it quite unrealistic that the RAF lost only 537 airmen. I guess they are not included in your numbers. With a modest guess of 5 airmen lost per aircraft Bomber Command crew losses alone amounts to ~1300.

Anyone have data on Costal Command?

I think the question then comes down to how do you break down the B of B losses.

The numbers I listed are specific to the B of B air battle.  They don't include LW losses from operations outside of the scope of air operations over England.

So maybe we need to go back a step and define what the question is that folks want answered.  B of B losses
or RAF v Luftwaffe losses in total for the time frame the B of B was going on.

Two totally different questions don't you think?  If we are talking B of B, I think the focus should be on the air ops over the B of B.

But then again that's how these arguments always go I guess.  

Dan/CorkyJr

[Angus]

What I'm putting together is exclusively BoB related.

Patience.....

edit...
Have to milk the cows before I have time

[GScholz]

Originally posted by Guppy35
I think the question then comes down to how do you break down the B of B losses.

The numbers I listed are specific to the B of B air battle.  They don't include LW losses from operations outside of the scope of air operations over England.

So maybe we need to go back a step and define what the question is that folks want answered.  B of B losses
or RAF v Luftwaffe losses in total for the time frame the B of B was going on.

Two totally different questions don't you think?  If we are talking B of B, I think the focus should be on the air ops over the B of B.

But then again that's how these arguments always go I guess.  

Dan/CorkyJr

Bomber Command was bombing Germany as reprisals for the LW Bombing British cities. If they don't count ... then the LW bombers don't count. I don't know the RAF Costal Command losses, but if they don't count then neither does the Ju-52's and other utility AC (like search and rescue flying boats) the RAF shot down in the channel. Germany and Britain were at WAR. If you single out a select few criteria or operational areas you can manipulate the numbers to what ever you like.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
Bomber Command was bombing Germany as reprisals for the LW Bombing British cities. If they don't count ... then the LW bombers don't count. I don't know the RAF Costal Command losses, but if they don't count then neither does the Ju-52's and other utility AC (like search and rescue flying boats) the RAF shot down in the channel. Germany and Britain were at WAR. If you single out a select few criteria or operational areas you can manipulate the numbers to what ever you like.

So why are we talking numbers then?

There is no point cause you are right.  You can find numbers to fit anything you like.

The end result of the B of B still stands however

Dan/CorkyJr

[GScholz]

Use ALL the numbers, not just the ones you like. The RAF won the BoB simply by continuing to exist. However some here like to think it was a foregone conclusion that they would.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
Use ALL the numbers, not just the ones you like. The RAF won the BoB simply by continuing to exist. However some here like to think it was a foregone conclusion that they would.

It has nothing do do with what numbers I like, cause ultimately I could care less about the numbers.  

I just threw those numbers in there because they came from what appears to me to be an unbiased source that documents the daily losses for both sides so completely.

As near as I can tell the majority of books, websites, you name it,  DO NOT go outside the scope of Fighter Command vs the LW units attacking England.  That was the Battle of Britain.

And all the coulda, shoulda woulda's about what MIGHT have happened are irrelevent because they didn't.

Dan/CorkyJr

[GScholz]

Well we are talking about what DID happen. And some here likes to be selective about the facts (on both sides, and most authors).

Every single plane flying to or from Britain was part of the battle. That's why they call it Battle of Britain, and not the Battle of Fighter Command or Battle of London.

[agent 009]

As for Brit fighters, one should consider the Fairy swordfish & Barracuda & subtract these from total fighter losses, ( If they were considered part of the 900 that is ),

 & yes it's true that many Hurries & Spits were lost to German bombers. Good point.

[GScholz]

The Swordfish and Barracuda were not fighters.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
Well we are talking about what DID happen. And some here likes to be selective about the facts (on both sides, and most authors).

Every single plane flying to or from Britain was part of the battle. That's why they call it Battle of Britain, and not the Battle of Fighter Command or Battle of London.

So basically in your view, any aircraft that flew for Germany or Britain regardless of the part it took in the actual battle should be counted.

So a courier aircraft goes down in Germany.  It counts.  A cargo plane goes down between airbases in England.  It counts.

SO we are really talking about many more aircraft on both sides.

Again, what's the point as the numbers are going to be skewed one way or another with many aircraft having little or no impact on the conduct of LW operations over Britain or RAF operations in defense of Britain which is what the Battle of Britain was about.

Dan/CorkyJr

[GScholz]

You missed the "to and from Britain" part. Learn to read.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by GScholz
You missed the "to and from Britain" part. Learn to read.

Now yer gonna get pissy on me?  If you want them all, then anything involved in any way shape or form fits.  If it supported operations in the B of B then it counts.

I don't buy it, but again as you point out, some folks like to manage the numbers to fit their point and yours would be a good example

Bomber Command was a seperate entity from Fighter Command.  RAF bombers had been to Germany prior to the B of B.  It's not like those bombing raids started as a result of the B of B.  That they hit Berlin after the LW hit London was only part of their ongoing operations.

But you know, like all these threads there is clearly no point in carrying on as no one is listening anyway right?

Dan/CorkyJr

[agent 009]

OK Schulz, if they weren't counted, disregard me comment. I read somewhere these were counted when they shouldn't have been.