Author Topic: HTC, pay attention on strat gameplay pls.  (Read 1363 times)

Offline Fariz

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HTC, pay attention on strat gameplay pls.
« on: November 21, 2004, 03:12:37 AM »
Trinity is a good example of strat gameplay changing to the worse. It is 3rd day of a total steelmate, usual procedure is: one side hordes a field, capture it, then other side kills troops then fighter hangars, then gets field back. Because attacker has no troops to move ahead, they  stuck, and eventually lose what they gained before.

IMHO problems here are:

1) Troops barracks. When you get the field, and 1 fighter over it can at once strafe barracks -- it is wrong. Barracks shall be tougher and there shall be more barracks at the field. Killing troops at the field shall require work of at least 1 heavy loaded jabo. Other way it is way  too easy and way too fast.

2) Bigger towns, which were supposed to bring more buffs, and create a better teamplay, turned a game into a hordes-oriented. For many people it is hard to get more than 5-7 people in a mission, and now such missions has a low chances for success (buffs are easy to be lost at defended fields, and jabo can't make the work themselve). As a result, missions  are extincting. In AH1 you could hear 5-7 different people asking for people for their missions every day, now it is sometimes a whole days without a single mission posted.

Increase of the number of fields for reset helps strat on small fields still be dinamic, but large maps are a problem.

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2004, 03:21:11 AM »
I agree on the barracks..Make them toughere to pork.

Disagree on making towns larger...Would like different size towns on different size feilds though.
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2004, 05:25:57 AM »
That solves nothing.

 We've had the horde problem since the latter days of Aces High 1. AH1 bases had both porkable fuels and multiple barracks - two objects which some people treat as one of the factors behind the horde mentality, which in reality is only superficial.

 We've asked HT for a lot of things.

 People hated fuel porking. They hated it because it was a strat object which could slow down advance with its destruction by limiting field access. So they wanted something else that effects strat but not the ability to up and fight in planes.

 So in turn, now we have the barracks. People can still up planes, but the barracks have become objects which could substantially halt all enemy advance at the entire front.

 Now, we hate the barracks for what they are able to do when its destroyed, too.

 So what's it gonna be next? After another few months we'll start hating the fact that a defensive side with local numbers disadvantage have no way to stop the enemy horde from taking fields at all. What then? Someone gonna start a new request to make ord bunkers tougher and more numerous? And then somebody else will come a year later and start asking the ord bunkers be returned to as it was.

 It's the same vicious cycle again and again. Exactly the same thing which happened with the side balancing  mechanism. One or two individual implementations cannot stop this.

 Toying around individual objects have absolutely no effect in stopping the steamroller horde. The horde phenomenon is something that comes from a fault within the entire AH strat system itself. The current method of strat just cannot cope with player numbers as it is.

 Back when we had only about 200 people in the arena, it was roughly 70 people for each three countries. Assuming equal fights at all fronts that's about 30~40 planes of each sides fighting at a front. In a 25 mile stretch of the 'border lines' there'd be roughly around 10 planes at best.
 
 The simple, small-scale strat which revolves around individual fields and its objects were effective back then. When a certain side masses its players, it was about 10~15 planes at best.

 The situation has totally collapsed since then. There are more than twice the average numbers of planes which used to be in the same 25 mile stretch of a border line. Base distances are the same while the total gamer numbers grew more than two-fold.

 The fights are harder, since there's at least twice as much enemies around, as well as twice as much friendlies around, with twice as much faster enemy reinforcements arriving at the fight(the guys who got shot down reupping)... which means you have to be twice as faster in shooting down the enemy, if you want to stay alive. Often individual skills means nothing in such hectic environment.

 Why do you think people create the 'horde' in the first place? It's because people figure that they'll actually get more enemy kills that way, despite the huge number of competition in the horde.

 Fighting and tussling for scraps of leftovers, often yields better results for most people, since in a "fair fight" with equal amount of large numbers of people on both sides clashing they'd not even survive for 10 minutes.

 
 
 Let's face it.

 The horde is here because everybody is selfish.

 In the old days the numbers weren't too large, so the 'grouping' of players on a certain spot meant nothing but a medium sized fight with good fighting opportunities.

 Now, when people "group" at a front, it's like some 30~40 people at a 25 mile radius area, doing nothing but milk runs , hitting empty, deserted fields... and then ten guys chasing a single enemy plane when it passes by.

 
 Let's face it.

 The MA was a classic experiment of the Laissez-faire - the "invisible hand" - economics which is going miserably. No intervention, no restrictions, no rules, just leave the arena free and it will balance itself, right? Wrong.

 
 Let's face it.

 The only thing that will ever spread the numbers apart, dismantle the horde, make people try and practice flying/bombing/jabo skills, plan missions, learn cooperation, bring back individual fights and duels, and bring the fun back in the MA..

 ..  is a forced application of certain basic organizational structure, at least loosely based on military operations.

Offline Fariz

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« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2004, 06:00:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
That solves nothing.

Let's face it.


Ok, lets face the facts.

Trinity could be reset (and was reset many times), now it is a complete draw. Map have not changed, so obviously strat have changed.

Number of missions felt considerably with AH2. It has nothing to do with a number of people online. In AH1 number of missions increased with number of people online, with AH2 missions are very rare. Missions efforts now are less effective, and successes are easily denied by extremely easy field porking. It is numerous time when field captured by team efforts at once lost its troops to 1 fighters up at it just before the capture.

I am not asking for a revolution. I am asking to fix what is broken from a strat point of view. It is all a game ballance issue. When strat efforts are not rewarded, strat players lose their interest for a game. Is not it obvious?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2004, 06:16:49 AM by Fariz »

Offline Fariz

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« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2004, 06:09:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SirLoin
Disagree on making towns larger...Would like different size towns on different size feilds though.


Good idea.

Offline Furball

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« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2004, 06:21:25 AM »
i think each base should have a small army base with it, similar to a Vbase.  Would have the vehicle hanger there, and could have a much larger barracks.
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Offline Schutt

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« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2004, 06:32:37 AM »
Make a lot more towns than airfields of diffrent size, requiring 5, 10, 15, 20 troops.  When taking a town the frontline moves... maybe a drawn frontline on clipboard.
Have anti air guns spread across the frontline that make low alt crossings dangerous, maybe have the frontline "hardned" on flat terain and on places with lots of enemy activity but no progress, the troops dig in there kind of. Have anti tank guns spread out after a while with no move in the front.

Airfields fall in enemy hands once the frontline is moved considerable past them.

Apart from that, introduce factories, sektor headquarters for every 10 to 20 airfields and troop camps.

Airfields should have light vehicles enabled (M series, lvts) but no tanks. Maybe big bases can spawn tanks. Vehicle bases spawn all kind of vehicles. Bases can spawn vehicles to all nearby friendly towns, in the hangar and to the frontline.

This way fights would be moved away from airfields, small groups can take small towns and big raids large towns.

Maybe not all of the ideas are praktikal, but there are some ideas that might give a more diverse gameplay.

ciao schutt

Offline sax

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« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2004, 08:55:14 AM »
For as big as Trinity is it's amazing that only 3-4 bases can be used without flying for 40 minutes.
Nice map but the bottle-neck creates Hordes on all 3 sides.

Offline whels

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Re: HTC, pay attention on strat gameplay pls.
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2004, 10:27:41 AM »
main reason troop/ammo/hanger porkage is so easy,  is
the whimp ack we have. its so poor that it allows
a single fighters 3 to 5 passes through fully acked
base.  a  lone fighter should never make it to the field to pork anything, muchless 5 passes.  

porking a field should require multiple jabo planes in on field @ 1 time so ack fire is divided up , or have to use Buffs.

deack of a airfield is still way way too easy for a single plane.


as for stalemates, most the big maps have 200+ bases?
and they ALL  usually end up with fights at 6 to 10 bases
for the entire week.  they are just huge furball maps with wasted
bases never used.  the only big map that got regularly reset was pizza(akdesert).


whels

Quote
Originally posted by Fariz
Trinity is a good example of strat gameplay changing to the worse. It is 3rd day of a total steelmate, usual procedure is: one side hordes a field, capture it, then other side kills troops then fighter hangars, then gets field back. Because attacker has no troops to move ahead, they  stuck, and eventually lose what they gained before.

IMHO problems here are:

1) Troops barracks. When you get the field, and 1 fighter over it can at once strafe barracks -- it is wrong. Barracks shall be tougher and there shall be more barracks at the field. Killing troops at the field shall require work of at least 1 heavy loaded jabo. Other way it is way  too easy and way too fast.

2) Bigger towns, which were supposed to bring more buffs, and create a better teamplay, turned a game into a hordes-oriented. For many people it is hard to get more than 5-7 people in a mission, and now such missions has a low chances for success (buffs are easy to be lost at defended fields, and jabo can't make the work themselve). As a result, missions  are extincting. In AH1 you could hear 5-7 different people asking for people for their missions every day, now it is sometimes a whole days without a single mission posted.

Increase of the number of fields for reset helps strat on small fields still be dinamic, but large maps are a problem.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2004, 01:50:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Let's face it.

 The horde is here because everybody is selfish.

 In the old days the numbers weren't too large, so the 'grouping' of players on a certain spot meant nothing but a medium sized fight with good fighting opportunities.

 Now, when people "group" at a front, it's like some 30~40 people at a 25 mile radius area, doing nothing but milk runs , hitting empty, deserted fields... and then ten guys chasing a single enemy plane when it passes by.

 
 Let's face it.

 The MA was a classic experiment of the Laissez-faire - the "invisible hand" - economics which is going miserably. No intervention, no restrictions, no rules, just leave the arena free and it will balance itself, right? Wrong.

 
 Let's face it.

 The only thing that will ever spread the numbers apart, dismantle the horde, make people try and practice flying/bombing/jabo skills, plan missions, learn cooperation, bring back individual fights and duels, and bring the fun back in the MA..

 ..  is a forced application of certain basic organizational structure, at least loosely based on military operations.
DING!

Totally agree, Kweassa. I'd make it sig. material, but for the HTC mandated length limit.

In particular, "The only thing that will ever spread the numbers apart, dismantle the horde, make people try and practice flying/bombing/jabo skills, plan missions, learn cooperation, bring back individual fights and duels, and bring the fun back in the MA  ..  is a forced application of certain basic organizational structure, at least loosely based on military operations." Indeed, indeed. You are so right. I shouted this from the rooftops, but nothing changed because of attitudes like
  • it's MY $14.95
  • I hate you little napoleon types - the worst thing in the game
  • I fly for me, not for you.
  • OK, so give me your CC details.
  • generalissimo/strateegery [sp]
  • I only have 34 minutes to play each day
  • My subscription entitles me to fly the plane of my choice
People think that any kind of restriction to the available planeset "limits choices". I disagree entirely. If the planeset were regulated, the early war/mid war planes would be chosen more. Maybe the hangar dust would be blown off the 109E even. But, as things stand, you have to fly something that stands a chance against an arenaful of 1945 uberplanes. There IS a choice: Hobson's Choice.

Offline Fariz

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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2004, 02:15:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
DING!

Totally agree, Kweassa. I'd make it sig. material, but for the HTC mandated length limit.

In particular, "The only thing that will ever spread the numbers apart, dismantle the horde, make people try and practice flying/bombing/jabo skills, plan missions, learn cooperation, bring back individual fights and duels, and bring the fun back in the MA  ..  is a forced application of certain basic organizational structure, at least loosely based on military operations." Indeed, indeed. You are so right. I shouted this from the rooftops, but nothing changed because of attitudes like
  • it's MY $14.95
  • I hate you little napoleon types - the worst thing in the game
  • I fly for me, not for you.
  • OK, so give me your CC details.
  • generalissimo/strateegery [sp]
  • I only have 34 minutes to play each day
  • My subscription entitles me to fly the plane of my choice
People think that any kind of restriction to the available planeset "limits choices". I disagree entirely. If the planeset were regulated, the early war/mid war planes would be chosen more. Maybe the hangar dust would be blown off the 109E even. But, as things stand, you have to fly something that stands a chance against an arenaful of 1945 uberplanes. There IS a choice: Hobson's Choice. [/B]


Hmmm, and why you guys are so agressive? You love to fly some other way? Fly it, play the way you want. Just do not forget that your understanding of fun is not the only fun in the universe. Here some people playing for strat, and strat playing has problems which are pointed. It is HTC vision if it is problem or not (it may by design), and it is HTC choice if to change something or not to change it (if it is not the way they suppose it to be), I am just giving them my feedback on the gameplay, from my personal point of view.

Offline Mitsu

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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2004, 03:09:53 PM »
I don't like large map and old maps.
It makes the tedium when logging to AH MA.

AH2 needs a Devolution...

Offline Mitsu

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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2004, 03:10:50 PM »
What about increasing country?

Offline WMLute

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« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2004, 03:28:14 PM »
If you don't actually Subscribe to AH, doesn't that make any/all of your ideas/opinions moot?

The idea of structuring the MA in some military/rank type fashion is the BEST way to make sure HT goes out of business.  The CT is for structured planesets, the MA is for flying/doing what you want.  

The MA is working itself out.  Not only are the sides more or less balanced now, but you also see tons of high alt buffs.

As far as the late war/uber plane whine, I have never understood it.  La7's are only good under 8k, and a threat only if you are horribly out of position.  If you furball on the deck, then try and run with a couple of (insert turn/burn plane here) chasing you, that la7 sure is pesky.  He'll make you have to turn and fight the others.  Happens to me sure.  And you know what?  It was my fault I was IN that position.  I blew my hardeck, or lost my E, or whatever, and this is the price you pay for it.  La7's are fodder over 10k.  (under 10k imho)  with many, many planes.  Nothing late war really scares me, unless I'M out of position, and in that instance, ANY plane scares me.  I'm much, MUCH more afraid of a well flown early war plane, than any dweeb in a (insert late model ride here).

If you have limited time to fly, then you should be able to fly and enjoy yourself.  Period.  I fly 100hours a month ish usually, (some more, some less) and most of it is in quick, 20-40 min hops all through my day.  It's rare to find me flying for hours and hours.

Personally, I've been of the opinion that if your team is horribly outnumbered, the Strat should adjust itself so your "stuff" ups faster.  Makes sense that if you have overwhelming #'s, your stuff should up slower.  THAT is what I think HT shoulda tweaked.  

I wouldn't mind adding more barraks to a field, or increasing their hardness.  BUT if the other team is porking all your strat, then organize some guys and do some resupply runs.  I've done it numerous times w/ my squad.

just my rambling 2 cents.
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Offline ALF

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« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2004, 04:29:47 PM »
Trinity is a map of funnels.  You have 200 bases, but only 3 or so per side are worth flying from at any given time.  It also creates a situation where ONLY a hoard can get a big enough 'beachhead' to hold onto captured bases outside of their initial zone.  

Typically, you can capture a base or two, but the defenders have so many bases to counter attack from that its nearly impossible to hold those hard won bases as it takes just a few determined pilots to kill the FH at the newly capture bases, and there is no way for the attackers to funnel enough fighters in to defend in most cases.

So base capturing is a bit on the pointless side unless you can mount a well organized attack force to capture 4-6 bases very quickly and defend them from an immediate re-capture.

This organized force is know as the 'HOARD' be those that cant stand the idea of being beaten by folks who organize :D