How many killed : Saddam vs USA

[BlueJ1]

Juke Box Hero! With stars in his eyes...!

[john9001]

saddam killed his own people ? no way , it is all lies by the halliburton oil men, the missing iraqies are just lost in the desert with the WMD, they will come back as soon as the yankee imperial bush armies are defeated by the brave defenders of islam.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by john9001
saddam killed his own people ? no way , it is all lies by the halliburton oil men, the missing iraqies are just lost in the desert with the WMD, they will come back as soon as the yankee imperial bush armies are defeated by the brave defenders of islam.

John is using "The Grunhertz Defence Method"

[GRUNHERZ]

Its a lot, though I doubt anyone will ever know exactly how many. There are all the outright mass killings. The dossapearences. People put in wood chippers. People drowned in baths of acid. People blown up. Women raped and killed by Uday. People killed abroad. There is the whole Iraqi jewish comminity which was wiped oput. Whole tribes of people wiped out. Tens of thousands who died due to sanctions while Old europe and the UN  helped themselves to Iraqi oil and finaced sucide bombers in Israel through saddam and the Oil-for-hypocricy program. And on and on. Its really hard to say, but it sure looks to be a lot.

You know maybe we could get a better estimate if European countries would be willing to send more mass grave experts to help us uncover and investigate those sites. But of course many in Europe wont do that because the evidence could be used in Saddam's trial and Europe doesnt want him to be executed because Europe is oh so sophisticated and humane now.. It's nice that Europe now cares about stopping exectutions in Iraq, neato...

Maniac your blatant attempt to equate Saddam's murders with casualities of a US invasion is beyond redioulous. The two are utterly incomporable in any sense and it's clear that your intrest here isnt one of mere arithmatic. Look we allready know where you stand with respect to the evil of the usa, so why bother?

[Saurdaukar]

Maniac = t3h d0rk.

[Momus--]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
There is the whole Iraqi jewish comminity which was wiped oput. Whole tribes of people wiped out.

You're talking out of your rear as usual. The majorty of the Iraqi Jewish community emigrated well before the Ba'athist and Saddam era. Most that remainded did suffer persecution but were not "wiped out"; rather they were quietly allowed to emigrate later on. A relatively small number (<100?) were tortured and/or killed.

...... while Old europe and the UN  helped themselves to Iraqi oil and finaced sucide bombers in Israel through saddam and the Oil-for-hypocricy program.

The fact that you're regurgitating this tripe just shows what a dittohead you are. Some points:

1) Every Oil for Food contract was subject to the scrutiny of the US government prior to approval.

2) Your own Government Accountability Office has confirmed that at least 93% of all Oil for Food revenues were used correctly.

3) Saddam was supporting Palestianian groups long before the inception of the Oil for Food scheme. Given the relatively small amounts donated as "pensions" to the families of the bombers, he could certainly have afforded to pay whether or not Oil for Food was in effect.  Arguing a direct link is plain nonsense, do you realise that?

You know maybe we could get a better estimate if European countries would be willing to send more mass grave experts to help us uncover and investigate those sites. But of course many in Europe wont do that because the evidence could be used in Saddam's trial and Europe doesnt want him to be executed because Europe is oh so sophisticated and humane now.. It's nice that Europe now cares about stopping exectutions in Iraq, neato...

In case you hadn't noticed, Iraq isn't a popular place for western civilians to work in right now. The suggestion that european experts are reluctant to assist because of the death penalty issue originates with ONE source. The name of that source is Greg Kehoe, a US lawyer assisting with the Saddam prosecution. Try as I might, I can't find any references to which particular "experts" have refused to help for this reason, or to which particular countries have refused to assist. Sounds like more Neo-con FUD to me. Greg has also "complained" about the size of his team's budget, yet I don't see you vilifying Bush for not supporting the investigation.

As for the mass graves themselves, the ones uncovered so far seem to date from the late '80s, which as I'm sure you're aware was a period when Saddam was the closest ally of the US in the region. He was equally close to a number of Euro nations, but the particularly active role that the US took in fostering the conflict with Iran, within the context of which many of these mass graves can be placed, makes a mockery of your contention that the blood of these dead stains European hands exclusively.

If you're going to vent spleen at Europe, please at least try to do so on the basis of facts and context.

[GRUNHERZ]

So momus there is no oil for food program scandal involving the UN and several big Iraq war opposing nations....

[Momus--]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So momus there is no oil for food program scandal involving the UN and several big Iraq war opposing nations....

That is correct. The "scandal", if one can call it that, centres on the Ba'ath Party overcharging and taking kickbacks from multi-nationals then laundering the cash through a number of foreign banks. There are also some unproven allegatations against un-named UN officials.

It is FUD and hype.

You bought it because it confirms your preconceptions re. all things non-American and it helps you rationalise a war that according to the originally stated pretexts wasn't justified.

Have you actually read the GAO report on the Oil for Food scheme?

[lazs2]

not sure on the numbers or types of peoples killed by either party but I do know how many people the sadman and his sons will be killing in the future.

lazs

[WMLute]

Most estimates I read suggested @300,000 Iraqi civilians were killed by Saddam, most sources pointed to the 262 mass graves found.  I can't help but think that this number is on the low side, but let's use it anyway.

according to iraqbodycount.net, as of today the Iraqi civilian death toll stands between 14,454 and 16,604.

Using the low ends, 300,000 vs. 14,000.

BUT to add to this discussion here are some other interesting facts re. Iraq post invasion.  FYI this is all mostly 6month old info, but I'll still post it.  Made me curious as to what all might have changed in the past 6mths for the better.

According to a UNICEF report at the end of 2003, more than 3 1/2 million children had been immunized.

according to an April, 2004 report from UNICEF, school attendance in Iraq increased by 60 percent shortly after the war to more than 95 percent during the recent national exam week.

UNICEF says that as of April, 2004, more than 2,500 schools have been renovated with the goal of 4,000 being completed by the end of the year, but 10,000 more need repair.

n a November, 2003 interview on National Public Radio, Andrew Natsios of the U.S. Agency for International Development said that the port at Umm Qasar, Iraq's largest, is modern and functioning for the first time in 20 years.

Because of disrepair and looting, it took a lot of work to get hospitals back up to speed but according to James Haverman, the Coalition Provisional Authority Senior Advisor to the Iraqi Ministry of Health, all 240 hospitals in Iraq as well as 2400 primary health care clinics were operating as of December, 2003.

Not only are U.S. soldiers demonstrating field sanitation and hand washing, but UNICEF is conducting an active health education program to improve personal hygiene and promote more hand washing.

The formation of an Iraqi national army has begun.

30,000 Iraqi police have been hired.

An Iraqi civil defense corps is being formed.

Coalition forces have captured or killed 38 of Iraq's 55 most wanted. (I believe the number is higher than this)

Thousands of lower-level Baath Party loyalists have been rounded up or otherwise dealt with.

The Iraqi Central Bank has been made independent.

Iraq has returned to the world oil market.

All of Iraq's universities have reopened.

Over 100 newspapers have begun publishing.

In all major cities and in 85 percent of the towns, municipal councils have been formed of Iraqis.

With additional production increases expected, oil exports this year could add $14 billion to Iraq's threadbare budget, compared with a little more than $5 billion last year, said a senior official with the Coalition Provisional Authority