Evasives...

[Vudak]

Ok, so Redd & Paul showed me a simple evasive that I'm having some luck with.  I've far from mastered it to the point where I have a clear shot immediately after it, but it does tend to at least put the enemy in front of me, which is a start.

I don't know the name of the move, but basically you have an enemy with more E on your six, you break left or right, then pull up and kind of do a barrel roll type thing in the opposite direction of your turn.  If you time it right, and the enemy doesn't reduce speed, you find your opponent usually misses their shot by a hairline, and is now in front of you.  Sometimes I'm in great position for a shot, other times I'm not.  I'm fairly confident that with some more practice, I'll up the odds in my favor.

Although this works great against 90% of the arena, it doesn't work at all against the other 10%.  They'll cut their throttle, not overshoot, and basically blast me as I've more or less temporarily roped myself in the barrel roll.

Now, I've often found that I can tell I'm in trouble before I pull up and barrel roll.  I notice their closure is not nearly as fast as I'd like, but I'm basically at a loss for what to do instead.

So, my question is, is there a good evasive to use when that bogie who is on my six, calls my bluff, predicts my move, and compensates for it?  Assuming I can tell he's done so, what is the next step I should take to deny him a gun solution?

I'll try to reply to any posts received as soon as I can, but I'll be traveling and can't promise when.  Nonetheless, your efforts are greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

[WldThing]

Originally posted by Vudak

So, my question is, is there a good evasive to use when that bogie who is on my six, calls my bluff, predicts my move, and compensates for it?  Assuming I can tell he's done so, what is the next step I should take to deny him a gun solution?

 

Uhmm you can pray,  once you've got a pilot that calls that bluff,  im pretty sure he wont fall for anything else

[bozon]

The simple answer is no.

The good players will see the beginning of your move and counter it. Usually as you start rolling they will pull to the side and set up a lag persuit, of make a barrel roll even bigger than yours.

If you see the other guy do not fall for  your bluff, he's reading your moves and you must suprise him. Since you are already at a disadvantage, and they know what they are doing, you will most likely die.

If you have some alt, the best gamble I can offer, is to quickly gain speed. As you see them entering lag (nose pointing way behind you and not pulling angles, or climbing) quickly enter a dive. If you can get your speed high enough and perhaps get a little more seperation, you can pull very high G moves and either: start the fight over from a better position, or make your escape.
It can't be worse than before.

Bozon

[Redd]

Hiya Vudak,

Answer to that will depend a lot on what plane matchup you are talking about. Tactics will be plane dependant to some extent , where you can perhaps use your strengths and his weaknesses.


Would assume if they are doing that to you , they are in a better turner - eg you are in a 109 - they are in a spit . So they figure they will drop in , slow down , and outurn you ? A worse turner than you , will probably extend for another pass etc etc. ,

A Higher E  better turner is always a major threat  for that reason. he has options.

Usually if I were to feel that happening (depending on what plane i'm in  - but say f6-F for example) I'd probably avoid the vertical move and  convert to flat or rolling scissors (the last hope for the low slow and desperate) really quickly to still try to cause an overshoot, but retain more speed for maneuvering, perhaps looking for a way out after a couple of moves (eg dive away - hellcat can accelerate in dive very quickly)

continuing with  a vertical move/reversal in that situation will be dangerous if he can slow down enough to follow you and hang you out to dry.


You will probably still die either way, if he's any good , but you might prolong the agony until someone can bail you out  

[sax]

Turn into them if possible and try to keep him hi and try vertical reversal on his next pass.
Key to turning into the bogie would be knowing early enuf they are dropping E when yu are setting up the first reversal.

[humble]

I've got a clip at home I can post that might help ya...

What you need to understand is that what you do will be based on what he does and what you have to work with. It's plane/E-state/Matchup/guns dependent. Thats where going to the TA or DA and working with a trainer or squadie will help alot. In the clip (going from memory here) I'm bounced by an la-7 (good stick not typical lala) in my D hog...I noticed early his closure was a bit slower than the norm (good thing to learn to look for) as a rule the guy whose montioring his closure speed is a tough nut. When I do my typical "pop up & roll under" rev he counters perfectly (hi yoyo out of plane)...I saw the counter and abort the rev...reorient on him and keep him right over my wing tip (basically I'm countering him in the "under" position...as he rolles in I rolled up and into him and we start a kind of rolling "semi-scissors"...he's using the vertical & rudder and Im using flaps/rudder and gear...finally get a chance to break out 90 degree's away retrim then Rev to reengage...we're just getting back into things when somebody bounces me.

Going back to wldthing's comment your probably just hosed....BUT....your goal is to get the bandit to commit to a prolonged attack while you have some ability to mount a defense...here I simply couldnt out fly the guy so I flew lag and then "reloaded" when a chance came...might not of altered anything but instead of a bounce I'd of had more of a true "merge" ....I'm 99% sure I've got the clip...I'll post it back on theis thread later tonight.

[Vudak]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I'd like to comment more but I'm leaving in <3min for England for a week!

That said, Humble, I don't know how long you can have that film on this forum, but if you can't host it until next Monday, if you could please send it to me instead at Vudak@yahoo.com

Very much appreciated,

[humble]

I can leave it up no problem....

[humble]

Ended up coming home for lunch to put the horses in...

http://www.azhacker.com/images/film126.ahf


Looked at it 1 time, only thing I had wrong is I didnt get bounced...just mushed it in trying to keep to much E:(....

Anyway the "reorient" is real quick...as I come thru the rev he's not being a good boy. If you view this and the earlier Ki-61/lala clip you'll see its the identical fight...only difference is 1 additional counter. to me best thing to pick up here is the Defensive part...bout 1/2 thru I decide this guy is as good as I am so I go "lag vs lead" then roll 90 degrees away and extend & trim. I rev since I'm not gonna get away so I can reverse vs evade.

Thats the one thing in your original post...your discussing a "guns defense" that turns into a shot opportunity. I like to try and "merge" via a neg E reverse if possible. If he counters I have some E and angles. If your countered on the evasive usually you still have him in your "6" and the E disparity (your greatest asset) has minimized, so he's closer to a tracking shot then before. I only evade (vs rev) if the guy is moving like a scalded dog....