Author Topic: Flight and Damage models  (Read 916 times)

Offline Kev367th

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Flight and Damage models
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2004, 04:17:28 PM »
Hmm intersting bout the Lala.
Starting to wonder if the damge model itself is far too simple.
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Offline bustr

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Flight and Damage models
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2004, 04:54:00 PM »
Is the damage model any different looking related to net lag on H2H with a 10base or 100base hub in your house on 2 PC's than over an internet connection? We know netlag will cause us to see things differently than our opponent from time to time.

Can Hitech COAD a damage log file that can be reviewed later for each session which would tell you what was damaged and how you died?

You are still looking at the time overhead of you and your opponents game clients processing all of the "eye candy" you want  and the round trips through the internet of your packets.

I don't know. In old AW it was alot eisier flying 2D. Then you could really focus on your con and nothing else. I guess when this game gets jacked into the back of our heads and we sit around drooling for 2 hours of cyber nirvana, someone will still be complaining it isn't real enough.:)
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This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Fruda

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Flight and Damage models
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2004, 05:12:02 PM »
The FM's were a bit shaky when AH2 was released; that I will give you.

However, the FM's in Il-2 are very "light". The P-47's a good example. It rolls too quickly and retains "E" too well. It feels as light as a Zero with the roll performance of an Fw 190.

That's not saying that the FM's aren't as detailed in Il-2. There's fuel mixture, engine cut-out, and many other things that we don't have in AH2 (yet).

You're right about the damage modeling. However, AH2 is still being developed. We haven't even seen weather effects, so we have a very long way to go.

Offline Kweassa

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Flight and Damage models
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2004, 06:44:13 PM »
Quote
However, the FM's in Il-2 are very "light". The P-47's a good example. It rolls too quickly and retains "E" too well. It feels as light as a Zero with the roll performance of an Fw 190.


 IMO the largest difference between AH2 and IL2/FB FM would be the total lack of torque forces in the latter.

 The planes in IL2/FB does have pitch response to different speeds (ie. a plane going faster having a tendency to pitch upwards more and more), but it completely lacks torque response. All the planes fly like they have combat trim on. Personally I've never had to use aileron trims at all.

 In AH2, it is impossible for a high-torque plane like the 109 to go 90 degrees straight vertical and hold its position there. The torque will take over around 100mph and force the plane to roll out to one side. In IL2/FB, all planes react like the P-38L.

 Granted, there are some weird stuff in AH2 - like, for some reason, you can't get any of the planes into a real "immelmann" or a "tailslide". Some planes will sort of "lock up" during  the vertical stall phase and just slip into a unrecoverable free-fall.

 Also, some parts of the FM in IL2/FB were better when compared to AH1.

 In AH1 a Spitfire was a Spitfire and a 109 was a 109. You could just slam down the stick in the former and go into a super tight turn instantly. Not so in IL2/FB. Overall in general cases the IL2/FB FM felt a lot more "light", but much more harsh than AH1 in tight maneuvering.

 It could be said that how well a plane could handle sudden, harsh instantaneous turns, was much more important than true, sustained turn performance, in AH1. I've had a lot of great fights in IL2/FB where even Hurricanes couldn't just hold down the stick and plain outturn 109s.

 Ofcourse, that's changed in AH2, and now currently sustained turn performance gains much more importance than sudden, instantaneous turns. A Spitfire in AH2 will stall out when you pull the stick like you did in AH1.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2004, 07:10:07 PM »
Probably the most significant upgrade in DM will come when they actually model more specific parts, with full internal and external modelling.

 One thing IL2/FB is good, is that the combat conditions upon expecting a kill is very different with each plane according to armament. A cannon armed plane would usually achieve kills in FB like it would in AH - by knocking out entire surfaces and causing fatal structural damage.

 However, .50 armed planes are very different in IL2/FB in that they require a concentrated burst over a certain period of time - they rarely inflict structural fatalities, but very often cause internal damages.

 The most likely cause of death by .50 armed planes in IL2/FB would be fires and engine seizures. A plane might withstand a burst or two from .50 armed planes, but usually on the third or fourth hit something is bound to be destroyed - a high probability of oil and fuel leaks, pilot wounds, and fires.

 In AH2, with an exception of few planes that is notorious for catching fires, it is actually very rare thing to catch fire at all. Usually it is a plane that has already sustained fatal structural damage and going down in flames. It is very rare for a plane to catch fire first, and that become the cause of being shot down.

 Also, a full internal damage modelling has some very interesting types of damages available. The most interesting case I've experienced in IL2/FB was a machine gun burst damaging my throttle systems. I don't know what the heck happened, but maybe the AP round snagged a throttle floodgate or something. I've found out that the throttle won't respond anymore! The only way I could reduce speed during the landing was to shut down the engine completely - and sometimes even that doesn't work!!

 ...

 So, I think there would be two large fields in which AH2 could be upgraded in DM.

 One would be a full overhaul in the DM itself, where damageable parts are redone, so the plane has fully depicted internal and external parts, with different damage levels.

 Like flakbait wrote, a plane with engine damage would leak just fuel or oil, but would be able to pull full power until the lubricant/fuel runs out. However, a plane famed with tough and durable engines such as the P-47 might get a piston head shot out, with rough handling and vibrations and etc., not pulling full power, but the engine still operational and stable, nonetheless.

 Also, it'd be good to see damage levels depicted differently in control surfaces. Like, it'd be really cool to see an aileron that is not just cleanly "snipped off", but ragged and tattered by enemy fire, with reduced levels of efficiency. It wouldn't lose its function totally as it is now.

 Ofcourse, the damage itself could be different. A non-functioning aileron is not the same thing as a missing aileron or a tattered aileron.

 In effect that'd bring out also some very interesting tactical differences in planes - ie. if a cannon armed plane would strike an aileron with cannon shells it'd be much more likely that the entire aileron be ragged and tattered, perhaps fall off with a few hits. However, if a .50 armed plane would hit an aileron it'd be more likely the penetrated shells damage the aileron control cables, rather than the aileron surface itself be damaged.

 Looking by the end result, a damaged aileron, destroyed aileron, aileron that fell off from its joints.. all could be the same in result. Perhaps the developers might not feel a need to model three different status of a control surface when essentially the result is the same. But however, the gamers like detail. God is in the details, too. Small and insignificant it may be, but such small differences with unique 'twists' in how the damage is dealt, would increase the feel of the game greatly.

 ....

 The second field of possible DM upgrade would be a full, cosmetic makeup. Initially people expected a lot from HT's comments that 'bullet holes will appear exactly where shells landed', but I guess a lot of people were disappointed with it.

 The damage itself doesn't look bad, but it is way too limited. It only appears on the upper surfaces of the wings. The fuselage, sides, and underbellies show no damage at all. A simple 'textured method' would suffice, as seen in IL2/FB.

 There are a lot of small but cool ideas to be shown off in this field. Like for instance, "hydraulics damage". This would be really cool to watch. A plane underfire gets its gears damaged. You could just handle it the way it is now in AH2, but it would really be something, if in some cases the damage to the gears relieve hydraulic locks and the gear droops down from the damaged plane. Man, the immersion would be unbelieveable if we see something like that.

 Many small ideas can be tried out. Like, the way we 'perceive' damage by hits. Shoot a cannon shell, see it connect, explode on the target surface, throwing up a ball of smoke, flame, powdery debris.. that visual alone would make it really feel good.

 I've recently noticed that on some four engine-bombers, the oil leaks on the engines would be also be perceivable from the externals. I think something like this is a step in the right direction.

 

 So let's keep the ideas coming :)

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #20 on: December 13, 2004, 08:01:14 PM »
What do you mean by

Quote
I've recently noticed that on some four engine-bombers, the oil leaks on the engines would be also be perceivable from the externals.


?

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2004, 08:06:34 PM »
Sorry for the long-windedness. It's an habit.

 Simply, you can see the oil leaks on the engine from the outside, on some bombers! Go near a B-17 leaking oil, observe his engine, and it has black streaks. (Or was it the B-24?)

Offline flakbait

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« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2004, 02:16:35 AM »
Supercharger and turbo damage would also be nice, not to mention one-of-a-kind. One 56th pilot over western Germany had an air duct punched through by an Fw's 20mm shell and couldn't pull full manifold pressure. If HT can model specific parts to that degree, he could model cylinder heads being shot off, punched out air ducts, ruptured intake manifolds... the ideas are endless. Imagine a jug driver getting caught, and hit, at 25k or more by a 109 and his turbo gets damaged. He can't pull full power anymore. Ammo box explosions for cannon-armed aircraft would also be great to include.

Another important aspect is pilot immersion. Simply having parts shot up isn't enough. Hard jolts, vibrations both light and heavy, see-through holes in aircraft surfaces from enemy fire, hefty bumps from AA exploding really close, airframe shuddering from stalls or near stalls. Currently all we have is a vibration when we over-speed the airframe, which is hardly enough. To the best of my knowledge, no other game/sim models things to that degree. WBs does have a nice "bump in the road" when AA explodes really close, but not much else.



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Offline klem

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Flight and Damage models
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2004, 01:25:03 PM »
Trying to stand back and let the ideas come in but just thought I'd reply to this:

The planes in IL2/FB does have pitch response to different speeds (ie. a plane going faster having a tendency to pitch upwards more and more), but it completely lacks torque response. All the planes fly like they have combat trim on. Personally I've never had to use aileron trims at all.

I've found different and although torque is modelled in AH I just wanted to say, take off in a Brewster in FB. Nurse that throttle through the power up or you'll be torque'd onto your back. Also, I notice in the 109s for instance that there isn't an aileron or rudder trim and I spend a lot of time holding on a little stick or rudder to counteract the torque. It does depend on speed of course.

Great comments guys, I'm sure HT is watching. Some of the thoughts go  beyond what I had in mind but there's nothing like customer feedback :)

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2004, 02:26:04 PM »
The take-off/landing part in IL2/FB is another story.