Author Topic: Are humvees really death wagons?  (Read 1315 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2004, 04:25:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
The F-22 is a cold war relic.  Design began in 1980.  

Why are our troops using a rifle designed in the 1950s AND running out of ammo when the airforce shoots down a Mig every 10 years and gets a new fighter?



The newsest AF fighter is the F16 which started service in the late 1970s.

The F15 started service in the early 1970s.  

30+ years old...

So why the hell shouldnt they get new upgraded planes?  Its funny how you say they dont shoot down many migs, but what about all the ground attcks they do? Or the precison strikes i  highly defended areas? We need to keep that capability even as the enemy gets newere defenses, so we need newer palnes with new technologies...  Our fighters need this to remain effective, survivable and ahead of potential enemy planes like the newere Sukhois.

But lets look at the F22, lets say you cancel it and keep on with the 1970s service era F15s. When do you design a replacement for  those F15s? In 10 more years? 20 years? 30?  What do yiou want? The air force flying 55 year old F15s and 80 year old B52s?  

Oh and the soldiers get new stuff all the damn time. New night sights, new body armor, new communications, new bomb targeting stuff, new weapons too. Its just not as sexy as a new fighter...

For example they are about to get a new assault rifle, the M8 and IIRC some are allready testing in Iraq. This is a state of the art weapon. They are also resarching and testing a new powerful caliber 6.8mm to possibly replace the 5.56, and the new M8 is modular so an upgrade is easy. A new 50cal MG is on the way too, yep no more M2HB soon. There will also be a new 25mm smart fuzed heavy MG/cannon...

Next generation wheeled ground vehicles are being developed too, yes armored ones with a great deal of speed, agility and power.  The abrams is also constantly upgraded as is bradley.  The Marines are apprently getting a new high tech Amtrac and the Osprey is still going forward. The Army is getting new helicopters too.

It just seems to me that you are griping...
« Last Edit: November 27, 2004, 04:29:25 AM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2004, 05:22:40 AM »
Raptors, star wars porgrammes and all that expensive high tech stuff is nice. It protects borders from all the other nations that wishes to harm you with similar type weapons..... you know.. sending jets to bomb our cities and military compounds.


meanwhile a little person walks into a mall with a homemade device costing 100 $ or maybe a more expencive device sent via container through a port... and the raptor circles above watching what happens with its great a2a missiles armed and ready.

Offline SunTracker

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« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2004, 06:11:09 AM »
We arent just talking about the F-22 here.

F-22, F-35, and B-2.

The B-2 is rated as one of the top 10 worst aircraft of the century due to its 1.1 billion dollar price tag (per plane).

Meanwhile, I have read quite a few articles about troops complaining about using Vietnam era radios, not having bullet proof vests, old rifles, and running out of ammo.  And what about the Marines and Navy using Vietnam era helicopters?  They said they cant afford to replace them.

The F-22 was designed as an air superiority fighter, not ground support.  Last I checked, Iraq buried all its fighters in the desert.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2004, 07:04:45 AM »
Why pick on JSF?  Its a big survivability and capability jump over F16, which despite it fighter roots is now mostly a ground attacker.

F/A-22  is also a multi mission plane note the A. When the new small precision bombs come online it will be able to carry 8 of them and defensive armament all internally while enjoying a lot of stealth features..

The F15 and 16 are 30+ years old. They are due for replacement.  Thankfully we are getting them in this next decade.

Curious, you have no given us a date when you think the F15 and F16 should be replaced with new planes?

The other issues I covered in my post before, new rifles, new vehicles, new transports etc...

I still think you are just griping...

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2004, 07:06:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
Raptors, star wars porgrammes and all that expensive high tech stuff is nice. It protects borders from all the other nations that wishes to harm you with similar type weapons..... you know.. sending jets to bomb our cities and military compounds.


meanwhile a little person walks into a mall with a homemade device costing 100 $ or maybe a more expencive device sent via container through a port... and the raptor circles above watching what happens with its great a2a missiles armed and ready.


Thats why we send bomb armed raports and B2 to bomb the crap out of these bastiges before they attack us, but wait, you guys dont like that...

Offline Nilsen

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« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2004, 07:22:49 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Thats why we send bomb armed raports and B2 to bomb the crap out of these bastiges before they attack us, but wait, you guys dont like that...


No we dont like when someone attacks you and you retaliate against someone else.

Offline Staga

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2004, 07:47:24 AM »
With the price of one Hummer US Army could buy 5 or more used, "second-hand" BMPs or a BTRs fom eastern european countries.
Few years ago I saw used BTR-70 for sale in "Caliber" magazine, price was then ~10000$... And they can swim too :)

http://www.aeronautics.ru/archive/armored_vehicles/bmp-2.htm
http://www.panzerbaer.de/colours/ind_camo.htm

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2004, 09:42:13 AM »
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Originally posted by SunTracker
 And what about the Marines and Navy using Vietnam era helicopters?  They said they cant afford to replace them.



They still use those helicopters because they prefer them. And while the basic airframes might remind you of Vietnam, these are not Vietnam era models.

Also, the USMC is in the process of totally revamping the Huey and Cobra into the UH-1Y and AH-1Z. These airframes will incorporate glass cockpits, improved drivetrains, 4 bladed main and tail rotors, and will share 84% identical parts with each other. It's expected that these airframes will be able to meet the USMCs need through 2030 and save the taxpayers tons of money.

Offline Gunslinger

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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2004, 03:05:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SunTracker
The F-22 is a cold war relic.  Design began in 1980.  

Why are our troops using a rifle designed in the 1950s AND running out of ammo when the airforce shoots down a Mig every 10 years and gets a new fighter?


Almost all of the news footage I've seen shows troops using the newest version of the M16.  I can't remeber the nomenclature for it but it is the shorter version designed for CQC.  Almost all of them have the cool Special forces goodies like improved sight/scope and attachments for flashlight ect.  

The newest rifle that is being field tested is probably just another expensive toy that the DOD will buy en mass and realize later in life that they were wrong.

Offline Dune

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« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2004, 04:43:18 PM »
M4

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2004, 05:33:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
No we dont like when someone attacks you and you retaliate against someone else.


You see the key word there was "before."

If we get attacked by something slightly more expensive and sent through a container ship then we might not even bother to "retaliate" with planes...

Offline SunTracker

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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2004, 05:56:29 PM »
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
They still use those helicopters because they prefer them. And while the basic airframes might remind you of Vietnam, these are not Vietnam era models.  


Must disagree with you here.  Heres a 1993 report saying that the CH-46 is obsolete and must be replaced Replacing the aging CH-46

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2004, 06:15:40 PM »
So Suntracker are YOU now supporting acquision of the gilded cold war relic V22 osprey?

Oh dear....

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2004, 06:56:32 PM »
Forgot about the CH46. All the other models are newer though. CH53, AH-1, UH-1.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2004, 08:02:06 PM »
Why is seemingly everything from Col. Hackworth always so negative? I'm always open to hear criticizm and a different pov from outspoken people as they are often right, but when its always a tirade of doom and gloom hyperbole and general negativity I begin to wonder.

Whats his deal?  Does he have an axe to grind with his former colleagues? This admin? The DOD?