Author Topic: Are humvees really death wagons?  (Read 1314 times)

Offline SunTracker

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« on: November 26, 2004, 07:28:14 PM »
The Death Wagons of Iraq

By David H. Hackworth

In Iraq, a Humvee – the modern military's jeep – is involved in an enemy action or a serious fender bender or rollover almost daily. Lt. Gen. Thomas F. Metz’s command has experienced 13 Humvee rollovers, resulting in 17 of his soldiers dying. “Nine of the deaths occurred in the last 90 days,” he says.

Gen. Metz says that most rollovers occur when “the driver has lost control of the vehicle.” In a letter to his unit, he summed up other causes, such as “aggressive driving, lack of situational awareness, rough terrain, poor/limited visibility, adverse traffic conditions, improvised configurations and failure to wear seat belts.”

Amen on the aggressive driving. If bad guys are firing rockets and automatic weapons and blowing off mines left, right and center, no one in his or her right mind would drive on the most dangerous roads in the world the way we oh-so-carefully drive by a parked police car on the freeway. As longtime guerrilla-war veteran Lt. Col. Ben Willis (retired) puts it, “The MO would be to put the pedal to the metal.”

The problem is that the soft-skinned Humvee was conceived as a light utility truck – not a close combat vehicle. “The Humvee is horribly thin-skinned and underpowered,” says Army veteran Scott Schreiber, who drove one for six years. “It should be used in roles that don’t call for armor. If the role calls for armor, it’s simple: use armor.”

At the end of World War II, I was in a recon company in Italy. We started with armored cars – M-8s – but as Terrible Tito’s terrorists started using roadside mines and staging ambushes similar to the mean stuff going down in Iraq, our leaders quickly got rid of those thin-skinned suckers and put us in light tanks – M-24s. Within a year, as the guerrilla war with Yugoslavia heated up, we were given Sherman tanks – M-4s – with their even-thicker armor protection. And when a blown mine or ambush slapped shrapnel or slugs against the sides of our 36-ton tanks, we sat safely inside those steel walls, with our weapons turned full-bore on the enemy. Our armor protection gave us the critical edge our troopers should have today.

But here we are in Iraq after 15 bloody months still welding steel plate onto Humvees. Sure, our soldiers gain a tad more protection, but it also turns the vehicles into rollover queens because it shifts their center of gravity.

Meanwhile, we have the Pentagon spending billions of dollars on irrelevant gold-plated fighter aircraft and on the lightly armored Stryker – a vehicle that is not battle-tried and that the Army has placed in relatively safe northern Iraq. Not to mention the thousands of potentially lifesaving armored personnel carriers – M-113s – left over from the Cold War gathering dust in depots.

What’s further wrong with this picture is that Iraq has excellent steelworkers and first-class machine shops that could be put to good use upgrading captured Iraqi equipment into armored vehicles capable of protecting our warriors while also securing our long, exposed supply lines.

Our modern generals might give a lot of lip service to protecting the force, but any way you cut it, what’s going on in Iraq is criminal. Clearly there’s a disconnect. The brass need to spend less time in their luxurious lakefront palaces and get down on the ground with the troops.

Maybe then they’ll develop a greater sense of urgency about what’s really needed on those killer roads the same way the 88th Division commanding general, Maj. Gen. Bryant E. Moore, did with us back in Italy and then again in Korea – where he was eventually killed as a corps commander leading from the front.

And maybe our lawmakers should stop by Walter Reed hospital and get some firsthand skinny from the terribly wounded being treated there about what a death wagon the Humvee has become from the way it's presently being used.

“How many soldiers and Marines need to be maimed or killed by roadside bombs before Congress will get off their tails?” Mary Martino rightfully asks. “My son is serving his country with honor and pride in Iraq ... and has the right to expect that his country will do whatever it takes to protect him in his duties.”

--Eilhys England contributed to this column.

 Col. David H. Hackworth (USA Ret.) is SFTT.org co-founder and Senior Military Columnist for DefenseWatch magazine. For information on his many books, go to his home page at Hackworth.com, where you can sign in for his free weekly Defending America. Send mail to P.O. Box 11179, Greenwich, CT 06831. His newest book is “Steel My Soldiers’ Hearts.”  © 2004 David H. Hackworth. Please send Feedback responses to dwfeedback@yahoo.com.

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Hacks%20Target.db&command=viewone&op=t&id=75&rnd=560.171933513205

Offline Dune

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2004, 07:36:20 PM »
Early Willy's were damn hard to drive.  Especially because of the way the rear suspension was hooked up.  They were tipsy and if you tried to turn too hard you'd roll it.  My dad had a 151 and a 38A1.  Great to drive and were very smooth off-road, but could tip.  I wonder how many of those rolled.

And Hummer was just a big Jeep.  Imagine putting a .50 cal in the back of a jeep and using it to run convoy duty or patrol streets the way they use Hummers.  Not gonna happen.  So they put more armor on it.  And what is already too heavy becomes way too heavy for the engine.  Besides, it's a diesel, it's got torque, not accleration.

Offline Raubvogel

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2004, 09:06:18 PM »
Yeah....113s would help :rolleyes:

Offline Maverick

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2004, 09:10:19 PM »
When I was a new 2nd Lt. a friend of mine had the jeep he was driving roll on him. He was injured but survived. The reason he did was the "wire cutter" bar on the front bumper that kept the jeep from collapsing onto him. He was only going about 5 or so MPH trying to negotiate a small depression that cut into the road and the thing rolled.

The jeeps were known for rolling especially when they went airborn. They were much worse than a hummer. The hummer is still high centered in its weight but not as bad as the old jeeps were.
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Offline -tronski-

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2004, 09:15:33 PM »
How are the bradleys faring in Iraq?

 Tronsky
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Offline Montezuma

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2004, 09:27:18 PM »
Ugly anti-RPG Stryker:


Offline eagl

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2004, 09:55:48 PM »
It was an interesting article until Hackworth started spouting his ignorant blather about gold plated fighters...  Without those gold plated fighters, our tanks don't get within 200 miles of anything important because our current generation of attack aircraft can't penetrate against modern SAM sites without huge losses, and we don't go in without air supremacy anymore, per Army request.

His points about the humvee were fine, but his personal bias became clear when he opened his damn mouth about aircraft.  He dismisses 30 years of lessons learned about tactical and strategic airpower in 4 words.  If he's going to pull that kind of pseudo-literary BS, he can take his entire argument, roll it up nice and tight, and shove it up his prettythang.  He's an armor bigot with an axe to grind and an agenda to sell, and he's using humvee fatalities to forward his agenda.

F**K him and the high horse he rode in on.  I thought he was an idiot when he was selling his soul live on CNN as an "expert", proclaiming we'd lose thousands taking Baghdad and forecasting doom and gloom the first day of the Iraq war, and this article is more proof he's just a media potato.  CNN dropped him like a hot potato when he turned out to be wrong on so many issues, and every one of his Iraq predictions turned out to be so much hot air.

He retired a colonel instead of a general because the Army didn't want his stupid prettythang in the service.  He's too short sighted and ignorant to play nice with the other services and he'd never get onboard with joint concepts.  The Army needs people like him, but they're usually carrying 50 lb rucks and shouting hup hup hup as they muck about doing the dirty work.

IMHO :)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2004, 10:03:50 PM by eagl »
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Offline Maverick

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2004, 10:00:18 PM »
He is right that the hummer isn't a real "tactical" vehicle for combat. It's transportation, not a battle vehicle.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2004, 10:47:02 PM »
Why does he reccomend the M113?  Wasnt that a deathtrap in vietnam; with armor so thin that people rode on top of them instead of inside because any mine, rpg or anyting heavier than 7.62 got right through the alumimium or spalled it terribly?

Offline Raubvogel

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2004, 10:52:47 PM »
Yeah 113s are crap. Don't provide protection from anything over 7.62mm. Take out a track and it's probably going to rollover unless the driver is really on the ball.

Offline Gunslinger

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2004, 12:13:20 AM »
that's interesting because hmvees are extrely wide.  It's hard as hell to tip a wide wheel base vehicle.  But, I guess if you shift the CG on it, it might make a difference.

It's one thing about our military is they never want to keep it simple.  older vehicles that arent all techie don't fit the bill in today's military.  We need more expensive stuff that doesnt work.

Offline mora

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2004, 03:02:35 AM »
This is what you need:
« Last Edit: November 27, 2004, 03:07:39 AM by mora »

Offline Fishu

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2004, 03:35:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunslinger
that's interesting because hmvees are extrely wide.  It's hard as hell to tip a wide wheel base vehicle.  But, I guess if you shift the CG on it, it might make a difference.
 


So I thought too..  until it began over year and half ago.
Thence the DoD has reported every casualty in Iraq and often with a small description - somewhat many casualties had been caused by rolled humwees.

Offline NUKE

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2004, 03:38:50 AM »
If you can roll a Humvee, you can roll just about anything.

Offline SunTracker

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Are humvees really death wagons?
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2004, 03:54:29 AM »
The F-22 is a cold war relic.  Design began in 1980.  

Why are our troops using a rifle designed in the 1950s AND running out of ammo when the airforce shoots down a Mig every 10 years and gets a new fighter?