Constant G turns and turn radius

[Sparks]

I cannot understand why at high G and high speed an aircraft on my 6 can turn inside me to get lead.  I may be misunderstanding something - can someone help me......

Lets say I'm in a P38 at 250+ kts level. A Zero (for example) is directly behind me at the same speed. I roll into a turn and set a turn rate that gives say 4.5G - anyway to tunnel vision. I maintain 250kts and 4.5G in the turn by lowering the nose. Surely the Zero must be limited to the same turn radius as me as we are not at stall speed ????

My reasoning is this:-
1. The G in a turn is caused by the radius of the turn and the forward velocity - simple physics.

2. When turning the force to the centre of the turn is caused by the lift vector of the rolled wing.

3. So because of (2.) the minimum turn radius of an aircraft at any given speed is limited by one of 2 things -
         (a) the G induced causes pilot blackout or
         (b) the wing cannot provide any further force to the centre of the turn because it is at maximum angle of attack i.e. pulling harder would produce an accelerated stall.

4. "G" is the acceleration of the aircraft towards the centre point of the turn - any object at a certain speed and turn radius will be experiencing the same G.

Soooo - if you fly at a speed where the wing can maintain an angle of attack that is below stall, and provide enough lift to give a turn radius that produces an acceleration to the centre of the circle of "edge of blackout" level then any aircraft following must go beyond blackout level to pull a lead for a shot. So if I am in my high wing loading P38 and have the light wing loading Zero behind me then as long as I keep the speed high in the turns he shouldn't be able to pull lead on me to get a shot.

However it doesn't seem to work like that.

Help please.....

Sparks

[SKurj]

Separation is the culprit.
The aircraft on your 6 can cut the corner. At 300+ some aircraft with poor high speed handling cannot roll as fast and therefore can't pull lead, but at lower speeds, any aircraft that can out roll you can cut the corner.
Also the following pilot can give up some E and pull more gee than you, even briefly, and get lead as well.

Others can likely explain better than I

AKskurj

[Lephturn]

Skurj has it.  

Your analysis would only work if the bandit followed your flight path exactly.  In this case, if he is for example 500 yards behind you, he can start turning  500 yards before you did.  Now even though his turning circle may be identical, he can offset his circle with yours (he starts turning at the same time, but 500 yards earlier) to pull lead angle and nail you in about a 1/4 turn.  If he misses, he just keeps pulling constantly the same as you, and once every circle he will pull lead and have a shot since the two circles are offset slightly.

There are two more reasons you will die in this situation.  You can't assume that the bandit will follow your flight path exactly.  A smart one won't.  He will displace his flight path from yours in the vertical to allow him to use exta energy in the vertical to have a smaller "circle" if you look at it from the top down.  If you take two hoola hoops and put them on the ground, they are the same size in the horizontal plane.  Now take one of the hoops and tilt it up 45 degrees vertically.  If you look at it from the top down, the tilted hoop is now smaller in the horizontal plane.  Even by displacing his flight path slightly, the bogey can get enough extra room to shoot you.

The third issue is speed and turn performance.  You must maintain, say for example, 250 Mph to maintain your maximum G turn in your 38.  Lets say I am chasing you in a Spit V.  Now due to the different design of my plane, I can maintain that same maximum G at a lower speed than you can, say 180 Mph.  In this case, all I have to do is slow down and my turning circle is then smaller than yours is.  This makes it REALLY easy for me, since your hoop is bigger, so you are always "outside" of my turning circle.  Hence, I can simply fly along in lead continually with you just sitting there right in my sights.  Indeed your only hope is to turn this into a descending spiral and try to  force me to screw up and over-shoot you.  Versus a plane with a tighter turning radius such as in this example, you would likely fail, since the other fellow would be slower normally anyway.  He'd just gun your bellybutton down easy as pie.  How nice of you to fly along in his sights like that.  

The answer to the problem is that you must know how your plane performs in comparison to the other fellow.  If his machine is a better "turner", meaning he can turn in a smaller circle, you MUST avoid that situation.  Generally, your solution is to have a greater amount of energy, and to use it to "tilt your hoop" in the vertical so you can have a shot at the bogey.  The trick is you burn energy pulling G's and using the vertical with high yoyo's and such.  Once you lose that energy advantage you had, you must extend and escape.  You can use whatever advantages your plane has to try and turn the tables if possible, but if he can "out turn" you like that, you can't play that turning game and expect to live.  

As I mentioned in the other thread, we need to discuss what plane you are flying.  With that information, myself and others can help you with some alternate tactics to use versus various planes which will be more successful.

BTW, if you like to do the turning battle such as you describe, that's not a big issue.  You  will just need to pick a plane that has a small turning radius, such as the Zeke or the Spit V.  In that case, you can be the guy that uses his smaller turning radius to get lead and kill the bad guy.  On the flip side of the equasion, some bastige like me will come along in a P47 and won't let you get away with that.  The positive of the Boom N Zoom type planes is their speed and firepower.  So although your Spit would out-turn me, I would never let it get into a turning battle and give you the chance to use that smaller turning radius.  

Great question!  I love this game!  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[Vermillion]

And this is the exact reason that veteran pilots will tell you that flat turns lose fights.

Use the vertical Luke, use the vertical!  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Sparks]

..  In this case, if he is for example 500 yards behind you, he can start turning  500 yards before you did.  Now even though his turning circle may be identical, he can offset his circle with yours (he starts turning at the same time, but 500 yards earlier) to pull lead angle and nail you in about a 1/4 turn.

I understand what you're saying but isn't the same true of a turn in any plane?? i.e. if I pull a vertical 5g manouvre instead of a nose low low 5g then the oppo will still start his vertical earlier than me and so cut the vertical corner but this time he has the advantage of a target slowing infront of him.

If he misses, he just keeps pulling constantly the same as you, and once every circle he will pull lead and have a shot since the two circles are offset slightly.

I undersatand the overlapping circles bit but how do you break out of it without exposing your 6??

The answer to the problem is that you must know how your plane performs in comparison to the other fellow.  If his machine is a better "turner", meaning he can turn in a smaller circle, you MUST avoid that situation.  Generally, your solution is to have a greater amount of energy, and to use it to "tilt your hoop" in the vertical so you can have a shot at the bogey.  The trick is you burn energy pulling G's and using the vertical with high yoyo's and such.  Once you lose that energy advantage you had, you must extend and escape.  You can use whatever advantages your plane has to try and turn the tables if possible, but if he can "out turn" you like that, you can't play that turning game and expect to live.

That decision on the comparative performance I am finding incredibly dificult to assess in general combat and this is after flying AH for nearly a year. In a straight duel (ladder type or training) I do OK but get in an open enviroment and I still flounder. The judgement of relative e state and a/c performance is difficult.

As I mentioned in the other thread, we need to discuss what plane you are flying.  With that information, myself and others can help you with some alternate tactics to use versus various planes which will be more successful.

I like the 38 but it doesn't seem good at either strategy. I usually end up going back to the Spit 9, it seems to have extraordinary energy retention and turn capability and is virtually impossible to stall - it almost feels like cheating   - but I still lose. The 38 is harder but feels more like a real airplane in how you must treat it.

Thanks for the reply Leph

Sparks

[Andy Bush]

Sparks

If I understand you correctly, you are asking how a bandit can track you when you are in a hard turn, assuming the starting conditions are the same for both aircraft.

If this is the case, then the answer is relatively simple. We begin by assuming the bandit is behind you and within gun range. We make two more assumptions here...both aircraft begin the turn simulataneously, and both aircraft reach max G instantaneously (to remove time delay as a factor).

If we assume that all AH aircraft reach 'blackout' at the same G (I do not know this to be the case, however), then the bandit's performance relative to you is going to vary with his airspeed. If he is faster than you, he will probably not be able to get his nose in lead...he will overshoot in lag.

The bandit has two other speed conditions. He can maintain your speed, or he can reduce his speed...all while maintaining your G.

If he maintains your speed, he'll only get a snapshot as his nose crosses yours during the turn. But, if he uses less G, he can arc across the turn to a gun track situation. This will end in an overshoot.

If the bandit slows down, he can turn inside your turn radius and reach a stabilized gun track position.

This diagram shows this.

 

Note that this diagram is correct for any angle relative to the horizon (not taking into account radius variations due to the effect of radial G on the turn).

Please also note that maneuvering out of plane in this situation (above or below the target turn plane) has little relevancy to the actual gun attack. The co-speed attacker will only have to use it to avoid an end game overshoot. The slower attacker will not use it at all. In these instances, an in-plane attack course will produce the quickest path to a gun solution.

Andy

[Sparks]

Thanks Andy - nice diagrams.

Ok so I'm understanding things a bit better now.
So next step.....
I have a bandit within 1000yds on my 6 and closing but with only say 50 - 100kts speed difference. It seems any kind of break turn is not going to work because so long as the speed difference is not too great then the oppo can pull a shot due to the advantage of separation. So whats a guy to do??

I know I shouldn't be there in the first place but unless you can defend and reverse a situation then any amount of offensive ACM training is useless. I know the tables can be turned because it happens to me regularly. So how do you start to eek back an advantage???

Sparks

[Andy Bush]

Sparks

In a discussion of a guns defense, there is 'real life' and then there is Aces High...the two are not the same!

From my perspective, there are two major aspects of game play in AH that set it apart from real life BFM...on-line phenomena (net lag and warping) and the viewing system. Both of these tend to introduce considerations not present in real life. That tends to make real life defensive technique sometimes less than useful.

Net lag often results in the attacker being closer than he thinks. If he is maneuvering in plane with the target, this often results in an overshoot.

The viewing system can be a limitation for the attacker that the defender can exploit. Anytime the attacker has to change views, the defender gains an opportunity to move out of danger.

How so?

The typical forward view covers about +/- 45 degrees of look angle. If the target flys more than 45 degrees or so from the attacker's nose, then the attacker is going to have to switch views to keep him in sight. From the defender's viewpoint, the attacker appears to be at an aspect of about 135 degrees.

The idea is that the defender fly away from the view of the attacker. Here's a rule of thumb:

1.  If you see that the attacker is nose on (180 degrees aspect) to about 45 degrees angle off (135 degrees aspect), then roll to put your lift vector on his wingtip and pull hard into a break turn. This will tend to move you out of the attacker's forward view.

2. Once you have moved the attacker out to 135 degreees aspect or more, then roll to point your lift vector in line with his vertical axis (rudder...'up' or 'down'...it matters little), and then pull. This will fly you out of his side view.

There are other defensive options...a gun jink is a common solution...but this usually only delays the inevitable if the attacker is good,

At this point, you may either dive away for separatiom or choose to engage...the possibilities are too numerous for discission.

Andy

[F4UDOA]

Sparks,

Lephturn and Andy are about as educated in this arena as any two people outside of an active duty F-15 Jock. But I will give you two words that will keep you in the game much longer if your patient.

Split-S. In other words roll inverted and pull the stick in your belly and do a tight inverted half loop. The trick is to time the maneuver to when your opponent is just out side of gun range. And due to net lag that means about D-800FT in your 6. However it takes time to get inverted so you start your half roll about d1.2K ft. You must due this quickly and watch your opponent through the maneuver. If they follow you through the split-s(which is rare) you have a good opportunity to take the offensive because they will have more energy than you and may overshoot. More than likely they will zoom vertically and attempt the same maneuver repeatedly. You must be patient enough to simply repeat your evasive. Without fail they will become frustrated and try to follow you down. Then you can either use a spiraling dive to force a blackout or overshoot.

This takes practice and a good knowledge of the planeset to perfect this maneuver but to avoid the bounce you MUST use it. There are two other things about the split-s also you must know.

1. If you are low or become low because of repeated attacks this maneuver can get you some easy kills. First know the minimum alt your A/C of choice can get through a spit-s. Then when the nme is closing use it, if he follows with to much energy he will be eating dirt. If he goes past you climb very gently back to the minimum alt you can split-s from again. Repeat as necessary.

2. Do not spit-s if the pursuing A/C is gaining very slowly into gun range. You may find yourself and easy target. If that is the case try a rolling technique ie. barrel rolling or a scissoring side to side.

The most important things are to

A. Know your A/C. Know it's strengths and know the other A/C. Speed, turn, climb, dive(handling more than speed) and e-retention.

B. Know your E-state. Is he faster/slower, higher/lower.  

C. SA. Situational awareness. Know what is around you at all times. Check your 6 always. Loose sight, loose the fight!!

D. Be patient

That's all I know in a nutshell. Defense is the first thing to learn. Next is gunnery. Good luck.

F4UDOA

[Vermillion]

Let me chime in here a second.

While the Split-S that F4UDOA suggests is a viable defensive manuever, let me caution against it. Or at least caution against its overuse.

Lately, it seems that many people (especially Spitfire pilots) have learned that one defensive manuever, and become one trick ponies (metaphorically speaking). Every time a bandit bounces them, they immediately split S.

Sure, its a great manuever if you just want to make the enemy miss you on that single pass. But in the greater scheme of a extended fight, its bad. It puts you at an even greater disadvantage for the rest of the fight (due to the lack of elevator authority and loss of altitude), and in the Spitfire you have little option of disengaging and running away.

Look at it this way. The whole idea of a defensive manuever(s) is to

1.) Allow you to survive the immediate guns pass being performed on you. AND....
2.) Nuetralize either the Energy Advantage, the Angles advantage, or both that the enemy has on you that forced you into a defensive state in the first place.

So a Split S accomplishes #1, but actually puts you in a worse position to accomplish #2.

Now the choice of defensive manuevers is depenedent upon rate of closure, aircraft similarities/differences, E states, and many other things, but in my opinon I would suggest manuevers  such as a loose barrel roll, flat scissors, or a low G turn reversal followed up with a Bunt (my current favorite).

In my opinon, a Split S should be a last ditch defensive manuever.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Lephturn]

Good points F4UDOA.  

BTW, my squad-mate Eagl IS and active duty F-15 Jock.  Hehehe.

The Split-S will server you well as a guns-defense, and is likely the best move in the situation you describe.  An enemy who is diving on you from a higher position will be reluctant to give up that energy advantage to try to follow your Split-S.

Two points I would like to add:

1.  Don't do a perfectly straight Split-S, put a bit of angle into it.  You cannot afford to be predictable or the enemy will predict where you will go and try for a snapshot.  Try to angle your Split-S slightly one way or the other and vary which way you angle it.  Throw a straight one in occasionally for variety, or if you are trying to make the enemy auger following you.

2.  Manage your E carefully and watch the enemy.  When it is clear he is not following, you need to ease up on the G's you are pulling and do your best to accelerate and climb, keeping your speed up over 200 Mph at all times.  Watch him closely, and when his energy advantage has dwindled enough, you are ready to pounce.  Start your split-s and watch him closely, when you see break off and zoom, if it is early enough simply keep rolling back upright and zoom up underneath him.  If you do it right, you will top out under him within guns range and nail him while he is slow.  Be careful, this is dangerous, as if you mis-judge his E state and miss the shot, you will stall under him and be an easy target.  It is best to use this move in good accelerating planes like the 109-G10 and the N1k2, although Spits and the 38 can do it well too.  This generally works best after you have done a couple of Split-S's and gotten your attacker into a pattern.  He will then sometimes be a bit too quick to pull off you and zoom, and you can simply barrel roll onto his tail and follow him up.

Note, you will die a lot learning how to gauge his E state and yours correctly.  However, once you get it down it is a great way to turn the tables.  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by Lephturn:
The Split-S will server you well as a guns-defense, and is likely the best move in the situation you describe.  An enemy who is diving on you from a higher position will be reluctant to give up that energy advantage to try to follow your Split-S.

Ok now I have to chime in here  

I have to disagree with Leph and F4U about the split-S maneuver.  Sure it is a good immediate guns defense (usually) but in the long run it puts you at a major disadvantage.  If its only you and the enemy in the area, its the attacker who can afford to be patient.  Everytime you split-S, you are giving up loads of E which could be better spent forcing an overshoot.  If your attacker is patient (as most in here are becomming) he will wait until you are down on the deck at which point you can no longer split-S and must use horizontal break turns to evade.

Im finding that the majority of excellent pilots online use a nose low break turn to force an overshoot and subsequent rolling scissors fite rather than split-S.  Instead of prolonging the inevitable (your death), they are working towards a reversal.  In my experience it works like this;

- enemy closes on you from your high six
- around 1.3K you begin a nose low break (low yoyo) and pull enough Gs so that half the screen is in blackout.  
- Use your up-back view and keep the enemy centered in your tunnel vision.  In order to get a tracking shot on you he will have to completely black out.  
- Watch the bogie and wait until you see him in your up view then roll 180 degrees and put your lift vector back on him.  You have now reversed the fite.  Enemy can try to roll back into you at which point you are in a scissors fite or he can extend.  If he extends, you might have a quick snapshot but more than likely you will have plenty of time to either roll out and gain separation if you have the speed or to further reduce the E difference between you and the enemy.

-Ding

[This message has been edited by Dingy (edited 01-23-2001).]

[Dingy]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Split-S. This takes practice and a good knowledge of the planeset to perfect this maneuver but to avoid the bounce you MUST use it. There are two other things about the split-s also you must know.

One other thing about this move.  It is not 100% guaranteed to get you out of a jam.  There are plenty of pilots willing to chop throttle and jam on rudders to bleed some speed to follow your split-S as soon as they see this move.  The problem is that at the bottom of your split-S you present a VERY nice planform tracking shot for the enemy.  If you split-S, watch the bogie and if he tries to follow, make sure you use a little lateral motion in your split-S to make this shot more difficult.

Split-S is not a perfect defensive maneuver.

-Ding

[Andy Bush]

Dingy

That's some good thinking, and I like your description of the maneuver in AH viewing system terms...but a couple of things need a little amplification. Maybe you can rephrase the following to clarify your points.

>>Use your up-back view and keep the enemy centered in your tunnel vision. In order to get a tracking shot on you he will have to completely black out.<<

The bandit need not 'blackout' to track the break turn. This is only true (assuming he has more airspeed than you) once he has entered your turn circle. Outside of your turn circle, the bandit can track at a lower G than you are pulling. Now, this may well result in an end game overshoot, but he can track you. This is known as 'tracking on the beam'.

>>Watch the bogie and wait until you see him in your up view then roll 180 degrees and put your lift vector back on him.<<

I'm not sure I understand this. In the 'Up' view that I use, the view IS your lift vector (or close to it, depending on player modification). As I understand the view, this is what the pilot sees if he is looking out the top of his canopy. In your scenario then, the pilot has turned beam on to the attacker (the attacker sees a 90 degree aspect). If you then roll 180 degrees, it seems to me that you are rolling 'belly up' to the attacker. I don't think this is what you meant to say, so maybe you can restate it.

A nose low hard turn is a good technique to generate angle off and conserve energy. If it causes the attacker to overshoot, you may have a reversal opportunity as you describe. I say 'may' because reversal options and considerations are a subject unto themselves.

I like your aggressive defense...but can you reword this a bit?

 

Andy

[Soda]

This is all great information but I'd like to add one addition point. I find it important to remember a couple of other factors to help enhance the effect of the Split-S. 1) what are you flying, 2) what is the opponent flying, 3) what is the relative speed of you and opponent.

These 3 points tend to lead me to decide early on what my preferred move after the initial Split-S will be.  You have to realize that the Split-S is going to buy you time and possibly make a poorer pilot make a mistake to turn the tables so what you are really looking to do is get to the next maneuver.  Here's an example of what I'm saying: A high speed 109 diving on you will easily compress if he dives further to follow your Split-S, leading to a long lag pursuit for him.  You can sometimes judge this and allow yourself 2 decisions, let him worry about the compressions and use this time to escape (while he is in high G's and probably losing sight of you), or make your Split-S rather lazy to pick up additional speed to help match E more closely with him while he is fighting high G's.  It's basically using this maneuver to set up your next.

This is just an example but it's really important to think about the capabilities of the planes involved also, sometimes that can make a huge difference, especially against a better pilot.  Part of getting the maximum out of your performance is to play not only tactics, but the strengths of your airplane, against the weaknesses of other airplane.

-Soda