Author Topic: Community Question - Snap Roll Gamey or Basic ACM (Read 2162 times)

Shane · « **Reply #45 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:06:50 PM »

oh, and mars, the fact that it's been *several* days since this event occured, in conjunction with you seeking some sort of BBS absolution/validation, simply indicates that you *know* just how dweeby doing that deliberately is. mmmmkay?

but hey, if you're comfortable with it, at least you got your answer.... or rather, you were able to pick out the answer that makes you feel all better about yourself for doing it.

SlapShot · « **Reply #46 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:13:23 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shane
aka "snaproll"

duh.

duh ... I know what a snap-roll is and have seen Mars do one.

What I was describing was a situation where the plane is rotating on all 3 axis at a rapid rate ... that is what the "dryland trout manuever" looks like to me.

plank · « **Reply #47 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:47:24 PM »

I'd like to see films of both a legitimate snap roll and the flopping around that others describe. I haven't seen a good example of either to be honest, so I'm certainly not going to take any sides on this.

I worry that there are things that I do because I'm not a great stick that are actually 'gamey' moves. Frankly, the only way I would do it is by accident when freaking out trying to shake a good stick off of my six.

If it weren't for the forums I probably wouldn't know I did anything wrong at all since I keep the public channels squelched 90% of the time. I'd rather know I deserved a kill rather than just have one land in my lap.

I'll be happy to host any of them if a host is needed.

Shane · « **Reply #48 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:57:40 PM »

the problem with filming a fish floppy is that while you actually *see* it occur, film itself contains all the appropriate data and smooths it out on playback... snaprolls are easy to see on playback.

it's a netcoding thang that relates to the data sent that results in the visual weirdness one actually sees as it occurs.

this is why you always see some saying about fish floppys... "show me." the irony is you can't... you can only experience it firsthand.

mars01 · « **Reply #49 on:** December 13, 2004, 06:58:36 PM »

Shane there was no dweebery. I am sorry I brought your name into this.

After I did the snap roll for slap, he said it looked a little floppy. So I was concerned weather it was the game or your perception.

All I wanted to find out is if the game did not handle snap roll inputs well and what the community thought about the manuver.

I blew all that when I named you so I apologize to everyone for turning the thread the wrong way.

As for plank, don't take sides there is no need to that wasn't my intention.

I will get some films together of the snap roll and see if I can capture the land trout. Hopefully someone will have a good one of the trout.

Ohh BTW - The several days thing is really 2 days cause it happend Friday night. I haven't been infront of a PC since then and was busy doing weekend real people, Saturday - Sunday stuff.

But again I was wrong to name you, my bad. Enough of me and you.

mars01 · « **Reply #50 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:06:41 PM »

Quote

the problem with filming a fish floppy is that while you actually *see* it occur, film itself contains all the appropriate data and smooths it out on playback... snaprolls are easy to see on playback.

That is a good point shane and may have some validity.

If anyone cares and see me on, I'd like to run some test, I'll snap, then I'll tri to floppy fish, you tell me what you saw. Then you do it so I can check it out.

Plus this will be more fun then digging through films.

Shane · « **Reply #51 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:46:31 PM »

here's a few offline and online test films

offline snap roll:

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1102988140_offlinesnaproll.ahf

online snap roll, me in lead doing it:

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1102987882_floppylead.ahf

online snap roll, hub in trail trying to stick on me:

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/150_1102988098_floppytrail.ahf

he said i looked floppy, film shows how it can be kind of floppy. in hub's film you can also see me kind of warp a little bit.

watch them from various views and angles. it's a lot smoother looking in offline as opposed to online - showing the inherent impact nedcoding/routing has.

Jackal1 · « **Reply #52 on:** December 13, 2004, 07:52:20 PM »

My claim to fame will be coining the phrase "dryland trout manuever".
After my lemonade stand failed I just knew there would be something out there for me if I kept looking.
After the completion and publishing of my new book, " Firsthand Encounters With The Dryland Trout Manuever", I will be going on tour for autographed copies at your local bookstores across the world. Check your local newspaper for time and dates.

Hmmmmmmm............... I wonder if Mouse would like to hook up and go on the tour.

HT if you need any data on this manuever to add to the AH help files just give me a shout. My people can meet with your people and do lunch to discuss royalties, etc.

plank · « **Reply #53 on:** December 13, 2004, 08:10:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mars01

As for plank, don't take sides there is no need to that wasn't my intention.

Oh no worries, I'm done taking sides on the forums especially when I don't know jack. I was just wondering what they looked like for my own good.

Shane, thanks for posting the films I'll check them out when I get home.

Redd · « **Reply #54 on:** December 13, 2004, 09:15:20 PM »

Snap rolls work well those times when you are happily cruising along minding your own business and suddenly see tracers whizzing past your canopy.

it's an automatic reaction to that situation that can sometimes get you out of trouble. It's all over in about 2 seconds either way,

if I see the guy coming I would always do a more controlled reversal.

So I would call it an emergency maneuver not a standard maneuver. Don't see any problem in using it though.

The prolonged floppy fish is a way different thing.

Blue Mako · « **Reply #55 on:** December 13, 2004, 09:17:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by mars01
I havent tried a pony, what is your entry speed?

Tried various entry speeds from just above stall to more than 250 mph. All tests at low weight and low alt. In AH1 you could get a real nice snap roll to the right and an absolutely insane one to the left. In AH2 all that happens in the pony is the stall horn goes off and the plane barely responds to the rudder input, no matter what speed or power setting. The only discernible roll seems to come from engine torque. IRL The pony has a laminar flow wing which is very sensitive to AoA. I'd expect it to do really fast snap rolls IRL...

BTW IRL almost any sort of spinning maneuver (including snap rolls and longevacks (sp?)) will eventually progress into a normal spin attitude if left to develop without recovery.

mars01 · « **Reply #56 on:** December 14, 2004, 12:00:28 AM »

We'll shane, the trail snap roll did not look right at all, I will give you that. It looked like the VC just displayed one right side up image and then one right side down image and then a final right side up. I agree that is lame.

The other films the snaps looked good.

Well there is our bench mark, Iwill try to get some samples with another guy and see what they look like.

Anyone else a couple different people diff samples would be cool and some what difinitive, just for shts and giggles.

Zaphod · « **Reply #57 on:** December 14, 2004, 01:15:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by mars01
Hey Zap,

Funny thing there is, I don't snap roll in a spit because it doesn't do them well so I'm not sure what moves you are refering to. I may have the film of that one, I will take a look.

Actually I remember the encounter, you were diving in from my high six in a P47. That was a scissors not a snap roll. I'm not sure how you could even see if I was flopping since you were blowing past so fast.

That is the funny thing, I think alot of people mistake flying edge to edge as flopping around, when in fact there is a big difference. People that are aimlessly, skilllessly flopping around like the fish aren't flying, in most case my plane is under control and flying.

That is because it is an accellerated stall.

That just shows how good my memory is. Your right I was in a jug (I remembered it as a stang....freakin sometimers) and I was moving along really fast. That is why I wasn't worried about getting reversed or overshooting. It was a foregone conclusion so I didn't really press for a shot, just hoped for a sneak and stayed safe on the pullout

.

At any rate I thought I asked if you did a snap roll and you responded yes.....however you were in a conversation with Shane and might have been responding to him...I don't remember. It may also be that I just assumed you were doing the snap roll and didn't ask at all. It just looked floppy and not like a scissors at all from my end. I see those somewhat frequently from the better fliers and that is pretty easy to see. It has never looked floppy for the entire manuever. It seems that most lag induced flopping during a scissors is only occuring when during the actual roll then smooths out as they pull through the scissors until the next roll. This usually looks like a flop, pull, flop, pull etc. Again...I'm making no accusations on purposely flopping your ride, but the entire evasive maneuver looked like continuous flopping from my end.

Zaphod the Memory Deficient

dedalos · « **Reply #58 on:** December 14, 2004, 09:15:55 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Shane
the problem with filming a fish floppy is that while you actually *see* it occur, film itself contains all the appropriate data and smooths it out on playback... snaprolls are easy to see on playback.

it's a netcoding thang that relates to the data sent that results in the visual weirdness one actually sees as it occurs.

this is why you always see some saying about fish floppys... "show me." the irony is you can't... you can only experience it firsthand.

If the data is there for the film viewer to record, that means it should also be there for the game to display right? Lets not forget that the past weeks have been lag heaven in AH. Could it be that that is the cause of what you are seing?

mechanic · « **Reply #59 on:** December 14, 2004, 09:16:36 AM »

you guys should stop fighting over this.

if the snap roll happens there is two outcomes.

1: you gain control instantly after the roll. if this produces a little lag then its the game's fault not yours.

2: if you dont try to/cannot gain control and start to 'warp spin/flop' then this shows a lack of the will to fly within the boundries of the game. this is done in panic and is gamey.
the biggest offenders i find are 190s and la7s as they snap roll easy.

sounds to me like Mars's manouver was in the first catagory as he was able to fire a controlled shot off at his attacker.

should forget this thread now, or arguments and resentment will soon follow.

the film viewer records exactly what your FE see in my experience.