Author Topic: Very good read from the New Yorker  (Read 777 times)

Offline mauser

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2004, 11:54:48 AM »
The story reminds me of high school, being assigned to read "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand.  I was the lone sophomore in the "advanced" junior English class.  It also reminds me of watching a flic called "The Spanish Prisoner" at the theater near the University while getting my degrees.  It was a strange experience for me, watching a film which was in English but wondering why everyone spoke funny.  

Five years ago I was done with homework, exams, and lectures.  

I still get nightmares.

Offline AWMac

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2004, 11:56:31 AM »
Nicole said it all "Rinse".



:(

Offline Leslie

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2004, 12:19:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
I thought it was a depressing story.

lazs




Wanna fight Lazs?   No one will gain glory, but it would be a good wold west show. :D




Le3s

Offline mosca

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2004, 01:00:49 PM »
chercez la femme.

It's "Lolita" or "The Blue Angel" but inside the guy's mind, without the climax and denoument.

I'm not sure that it's universal enough to be worth publishing. It's well told enough. Maybe it needs to be deconstructed or something. Apply semiotics, look for hidden codes, that sort of thing.

The story is in the action taking place within all the things implied by the told details. It's an exercise in form. The meaning comes from our understanding of the juxtapositions.


Tom
« Last Edit: December 14, 2004, 01:03:32 PM by mosca »

Offline Gunslinger

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2004, 09:50:19 PM »
That was a good read.  Although I can easily kill an interesting book in a day it takes me FOREVER to read on a monitor and actually concetrate.

Wolf how's the new job treating ya?

Offline Wolfala

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2004, 12:21:34 AM »
Same ol' - new ****, different week. Had a friend of mine fly out from Chicago for the day and went exploring along the PCH north of Santa Cruz - got some pretty wicked photos.

Link to the photos

Other news - goin back for Xmas to the NY area - then heading to Moscow the day after xmas for new years.

So stuff's busy, but at the same time - chill - if that is possible?

Wolf


the best cure for "wife ack" is to deploy chaff:    $...$$....$....$$$.....$ .....$$$.....$ ....$$

Offline lazs2

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2004, 08:13:20 AM »
fight with someone called....leslie?   yer right... no glory in that..

boring and depressing.   The guy is such a loser that he has to prey off of vulnerable little girls who have no idea who he is..  The end isn't him getting laid this once in his crappy 30 year old life... after she sees what a loser he is and dumps him he will have to find another teenager to prey on because... that is all he knows and all he has the smarts and energy to do.

lazs

Offline Charon

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2004, 10:01:49 AM »
Typical short story form that passes for "litrature" among the "artsy elites."

I took an almost complete progression of fiction writing classes (in addition to journalism and marketing writing) at college known for fiction and media writing (Columbia College). Most of the courses were taught by professionally artsy types all working towards that MFA and writing (for many years running) that great novel that if published, will only be read by other professionally artsy types (likely only as assigned reading in similar fiction classes). Ride that grant gravy train if you can.

Notice the gobs of description, the gritty urban elements, the dark undertones and human frailty. Also notice how generally boring and disconnected it is, as well as some of the factual liberties like his living in a ganbanger neighborhood (teachers are poor, but they do have some options).

They want stuff like: “You could smell the stench of the rotting garbage, entwined with the light but acrid hint of stale urine from an endless flow of winos and prostitutes that had taken their liberties in the alley behind the once proud Regal Theater. In a happier, more golden times, refined men had walked arm in arm with women resplendent in Edwardian finery to see the notable theater ensembles touring from Europe. Now, greasy men, with bed-sore-boils on their distended guts, pull themselves to pitiful completion watching cheap porn in tattered threadbare seats…” Continue with same for another 3 pages then add a plot point or change of scenery (to also be described to death). Add some stilted dialog reflecting how a middle class white suburban teen or early 20 something thinks urban folk on the edge of darkness actually talk or just some inane chattering to flll the space until the next steaming dump of description.

Most of these literature types have a disdain for plot and movement -- the elements that make things interesting. For old school read Flaubert’s classic “Madame Bovary” -- I dare you. Or anything by Hubert Shelby (the good news is that once you read the first one you’ve pretty much read them all). The artsy types look down on genre fiction (the stuff people enjoy reading like detective stores and science fiction) as being banal and formulaic. But… they ignore the fact that the “gritty urban angst human edginess grand drama” is just as formulaic and banal.  

I probably wrote over 600 pages of fiction in the various classes, but only completed several full stories because it mostly involved exercises in writing these descriptive passages. One to three of four chapters worth and then move on to the next idea. The only instructors that required a beginning, middle and end with movement were from the handful of “genre” instructors that were tolerated. A few in the fiction department and then those in the separate broadcast media department -- screenwriting, science fiction writing, and I was able to be one of eight writers for a two semesters writing a soap opera that was actually acted and filmed and broadcast on local cable. Hell, the science fiction instructor, Phyllis Eisenstein was tough as nails, formal, and had written 9 novels and over 60 short stories which were published. I remember one artsy instructor giving a particularly tough critique of Science Fiction, but to this day I doubt he’s published his first novel.

Charon
« Last Edit: December 15, 2004, 10:08:11 AM by Charon »

Offline mosgood

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2004, 10:56:43 AM »
I thought it was a good read....   only read the part in the post because of time.


One of the post above reminded me of a girl that I knew.  She had a girlfriend that was seeing a guy that had some problems.  I don't remember exactly what he was doing but the 2 girls, between them, had the guy completely psychoanalyzed to have some kind of serious and dangerous social problem.  

They came to that conclusion because they took a psychology class once.....

Offline eskimo2

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2004, 03:28:51 PM »
Here's the beginning of a really great story:

That Sam-I-am!
That Sam-I-am!
I do not like
that Sam-I-am!

Do you like green eggs and ham?

_____________________________ _______

It just doesn't get any better than that.

eskimo

Offline lazs2

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2004, 08:59:27 AM »
charon.... wouldn't "boring and depressing" have been good enough?  you are a cruel man.

lazs

Offline Charon

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2004, 10:51:57 AM »
Quote
charon.... wouldn't "boring and depressing" have been good enough? you are a cruel man.


It was a bit harsh, but since the purpose is to have a discussion :) I did pay my dues getting to that level of irritation over several years and it's a bit of a burr on my ass.

I learned a lot about the fiction writing process in those classes, and put a lot of words on paper. But you always had to deal with the approved though on what constituted good literature and that artiste attitude each class. But, it was obvious that in addition to the occasional great work, there are a lot of trash grant junkies out there getting far more credit than they deserve, publishing “literature” that follow some general formulas to appeal to a small, niche market. Like those performance artists that piss on the flag for attention or put their **** in catfood cans and call it art.

Then, there were the writing instructors who actually made money with their fiction writing and pushed you to be tight, create flow, and have a middle, beginning and end. Description is important, dialog is important, but they have to move the reader somewhere in the process and move at a reasonable pace. IMO of course, there is no right or wrong answer, just what you like. Ther is certainly a lot of junk popular fiction in the market as well, but plenty of quality if you're open to it.

One of the greatest works of literature ever written is, IMO, The Lord of the Rings. It's dripping with description, character, darkness, morality but it has movement and excitement. War for the guys and Old World romance for the women. But, it gets no respect from the “litrature” scene.

Charon
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 10:54:20 AM by Charon »

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2004, 11:02:50 AM »
Institutionilized literature classes are boring and redundant. You are told to be creative, and to explore with your mind, then they shove the same old crap down your throat to read and analyze. Or someone's interpretation of what is good literature which typically turns out to be more of a lobatomy than an eye opening experience into literature. You are then expected to memorise the spew they call literature to be graded on it, or give your thoughts on the topic. If you admit it was nothing more than the author's brain retching on paper, you fail and become disillusioned with the whole idea of becoming a professional writer because the education "required" is simply brain washing.

It's conformity to the extreme, yet they want you to be an individual and express yourself.

If I could get away with it, I'd poop in my hand and throw it at the majority of english professors I've come across.
-SW

Offline mosca

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2004, 11:05:25 AM »
I remember having to read a short story called "The Incubus" when I was in lit classes in the '70s. It's about a female artist who has a short affair with a frat-boy type when she's in college, then they break it off. Over the next 20 years, he occasionally is in her town and looks her up, and they have dinner and sleep together. Eventually she kille herself. He goes to her funeral, and all her artist friends turn on him and tell him that at every point in her life that she was about to make a breakthrough, he would turn up  and bring her back down to mediocrity, that he was her incubus.

That was the last time I took academic writing seriously.

There is far more truth about life in the work of James Ellroy than there could ever be in the work of Annie Proulx.


Tom

Offline AWMac

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Very good read from the New Yorker
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2004, 11:26:47 AM »
I agree with you Charon. The Lord of the Rings was a great read. Hard to put it down at times no matter how late at night it was. Was just as refreshing reading it for the second and third time.

:aok