Author Topic: Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR  (Read 1149 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2004, 09:34:14 AM »
rpm, shall we talk of Clinton's Titan IV's? The Titan boosters have had six major failures. President Clinton had ordered an investigation a few days prior to this launch. Would you like to take a stab at how much that cost?  Do you think Clinton was directly responsible for these mishaps as you think Bush is for this latest Missile Defense failure?

Its pretty funny, they actually blamed the Titan IV failures on  on engineering, workmanship, no where was there a report by some idiot saying "Its Clintons fault" ;)

Now please...

« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 09:37:16 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline rpm

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2004, 09:58:04 AM »
No Rip. Let's talk about the program itself. It's a failure and waste of money. It always has been, no matter who was in charge. Clinton was blasted for recognizing this and cutting funding. Granted, you have an interest at stake since it's Boeing's baby and all.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 10:00:06 AM by rpm »
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Offline Ripsnort

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2004, 09:59:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
No Rip. Let's talk about the program itself. It's a failure and waste of money. It always has been, no matter who was in charge. Granted, you have an interest at stake since it's Boeing's baby and all.


Was Titan IV a waste of money, rpm?

Was SAC a waste of money, rpm?

FWIW: Why would you assume I have a stake interest in it? I do not own Boeing stock nor are my customers military.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 10:03:49 AM by Ripsnort »

Offline rpm

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2004, 10:08:56 AM »
From what I can find Titan IV has a better success rate. We have a SAC type defense in place now in the form of boomers off the Korean shore.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 10:11:56 AM by rpm »
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Offline Ripsnort

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #34 on: December 16, 2004, 10:36:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
From what I can find Titan IV has a better success rate. We have a SAC type defense in place now in the form of boomers off the Korean shore.


The Titan IV was financially a technological failure, in the cost of billions, not millions as this incident was.

Can a boomer shoot down a enemy missile once its fired or are you suggesting pre-emptive strike?

Offline indy007

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #35 on: December 16, 2004, 11:06:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
The Titan IV was financially a technological failure, in the cost of billions, not millions as this incident was.

Can a boomer shoot down a enemy missile once its fired or are you suggesting pre-emptive strike?


If they can build a laser that shoots down incoming mortar shells  then I'd have confidence that they can build something to shoot down ballistic missiles. It's probably not more than 5 to 10 years off. They say 2008, but the military isn't exactly known for effeciency. Oh, and bombers shooting down ICBM's isn't a sound plan... you gotta convert people movers! :)

Offline rpm

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2004, 11:25:56 AM »
Nice try Rip. Boomers fill the SAC role. Did SAC shoot down incoming missles?

The $85M was just for this test alone, not the entire program.
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Offline Ripsnort

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #37 on: December 16, 2004, 12:06:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm
Nice try Rip. Boomers fill the SAC role. Did SAC shoot down incoming missles?

The $85M was just for this test alone, not the entire program.


So whats your complaint again?  Many tests fail during the testing phase in our military's national defense.  

Obviously your hate for bush pinpoints this to  BOOSH FAULT mentality.  If you look at the bigger picture historically of all failed attempts in different programs attempted in the defense of our nation since 1945 you'll find much more costly programs than this dinky little test.  85 Mil is a drop in the bucket when your talking missile technology.  Bush isn't the first president in office when something has failed, and he won't be the last.

And the title is misleading, it is not FUBAR, its simple a set back.

Offline mora

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #38 on: December 16, 2004, 12:13:41 PM »
You may well have a missile defence system in 2008. You just don't know if it's worth a **** before the **** hits the fan! But if it makes you sleep better it's all good.:aok

Offline Ripsnort

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #39 on: December 16, 2004, 12:31:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mora
You may well have a missile defence system in 2008. You just don't know if it's worth a **** before the **** hits the fan! But if it makes you sleep better it's all good.:aok


Most Missile Defense programs be it nuclear or otherwise have R&D working in a parallel course with deployment...kinda scarey if you think about it, but that's how its been since I can remember...
some of its money well spent, some of it is not, you have try it first, which we are doing.  You can only go so far with mathematical models and static tests before you have to actually build one and test the theory. The latter is the stage this particular program is at.

It very well might fail, but if we don't try it, someone else might, the U.S. has a tendency to be on the leading edge of technology if you haven't noticed (;) ) and National Defense is the primary driver for it.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2004, 12:37:33 PM by Ripsnort »

Offline myelo

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2004, 01:20:22 PM »
I agree this is not Bush’s fault, although I don’t like how he’s handled it.

First, it’s a tough little problem to solve. Provided the attack is from someone with fairly advanced technology, each missile will have multiple warheads and several decoy warheads (along with various countermeasures). You will need one missile to intercept each warhead, provided you can hit 100%. And because they chose not to use an explosive warhead (a poor decision IMO) close isn’t good enough – you have to actually hit the inbound warhead to destroy it with kinetic energy. Repeat this for each missile. And you have to bat 1.000 -- one miss and it’s going to get real warm somewhere.

Secondly, I’m not at all convinced that the people working on this, including the prime, are up to the task. The problem is there aren’t a lot of rocket scientists left. Herds of computer guys, radar guys, engineers, etc. but hardly anyone that knows which end the smoke comes out. For example, in some of the early tests they had problems with the stages separating. That’s just rocket science 101 --- if you can’t do that, you need to turn in your slide rule.

Finally, the fact is that Bush shut down many of the planned tests. Computer simulations are fine, but there comes a time when you just have to run the test. For political reasons, we’ll have a missile in the ground by the end of the year. But let’s hope we never have to find out if it works – because I doubt it will.
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Offline Trell

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #41 on: December 16, 2004, 01:21:38 PM »
I like the idea of the missle defence system.  but it seems like there is less and less need for one.  At least for the cost.

Offline Thrawn

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2004, 04:33:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
rpm, shall we talk of Clinton's Titan IV's?



That would be a great idea eh?  That way to can try hijack the tread away from it's intended topic and you can shoot the **** about your strawman.  :aok

Offline rpm

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2004, 05:20:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
So whats your complaint again?  Many tests fail during the testing phase in our military's national defense.  

Obviously your hate for bush pinpoints this to  BOOSH FAULT mentality.  If you look at the bigger picture historically of all failed attempts in different programs attempted in the defense of our nation since 1945 you'll find much more costly programs than this dinky little test.  85 Mil is a drop in the bucket when your talking missile technology.  Bush isn't the first president in office when something has failed, and he won't be the last.

And the title is misleading, it is not FUBAR, its simple a set back.
Quote
Originally posted by RPM
It's a failure and waste of money. It always has been, no matter who was in charge.

Sorry, I did'nt realise you had A.D.D.
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Offline OIO

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Bush's $85 Million Dollar FUBAR
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2004, 05:49:34 PM »
Didnt the report say that 3 out of 5 missiles hit target (or failed to ) in earlier tests?


Imo thats a damn good ratio for firing 1 missile vs 1 target. Once deployed the system would fire a dozen or so at 1 missile to guarantee interception. So statistically the system works a-ok.

Nilsen has a point though, ,not many nations can lob a missile with warheads BUT that doesnt mean it wont happen.

Theres a big difference between a suitcase nuke (say, 1 kiloton) that will wipe out half a city and a single MIRV missile that drops multiple megaton-yield warheads at multiple cities...wiping htem out completely.

Protection against both is needed.