Roll rate and its effective use.

[batdog]

What are some good tactics/methods to employ using a good roll rate?

xBAT

[Lephturn]

Well, here are a few.

1.  Fast roll rate can be used to change your plane of flight, and hence your direction of turn very quickly.  Rolling to change direction quickly can make you a very difficult target to hit.  Usefull for guns defense.   Quick rolls followed by short hard pulls of back stick, followed by more quick rolls, can keep a slower rolling attacker from a tracking shot.  If your plane rolls well at high speed, this can be used effectively to avoid being shot until you can dive to a high enough speed to escape your attacker.  The attacker can still get you with snapshots, but you can avoid giving him a tracking shot.

2.  Rolling in the vertical can be used to change direction much more quickly than any plane can flat turn.  An energy fighter using the vertical can use a good roll rate offensively, rolling onto a new vector to intercept a turning target for a shot.  For example, I make a run on a 109-F4 in my P-47-D11.  He break-turns, and I pull up above him using my superior energy.  I then pull back down so I am diving nearly straight down.  While I am pointed downwards, I can simply roll to the heading I want and pull out very quickly.  I can use this to roll out on a flight path that will give me a shot on the "better turning" 109-F4.  This is how you kill a better turning aircraft in an E fighter... it's bread and butter for E fighters that knife fight.  I love it.  

3.  Fast roll can be used to execute barrel rolls very quickly to displace your flight path.  You use this in rolling scissors, defensive barrel rolls, barrel roll attacks, or for lag displacement rolls.  Be wary of defensive barrel rolls at low speeds if your plane doesn't roll well at lower speeds.  If you end up in a horizontal rolling scissors, the plane that rolls better at low speeds and can keep it's nose up longer has the advantage.  If your plane rolls well at high speeds, use vertical downward rolling scissors to keep your speed up.  Turn it into a defensive spiral if you can.  

[Urchin]

I think that I "use" the roll rate in the 190A8 and 190D9 without even really thinking about it to be honest.  

Take this one for instance

 

2. Rolling in the vertical can be used to change direction much more quickly than any plane can flat turn. An energy fighter using the vertical can use a good roll rate offensively, rolling onto a new vector to intercept a turning target for a shot. For example, I make a run on a 109-F4 in my P-47-D11. He break-turns, and I pull up above him using my superior energy. I then pull back down so I am diving nearly straight down. While I am pointed downwards, I can simply roll to the heading I want and pull out very quickly. I can use this to roll out on a flight path that will give me a shot on the "better turning" 109-F4. This is how you kill a better turning aircraft in an E fighter... it's bread and butter for E fighters that knife fight. I love it.

 

I do this without even thinking about doing it.  It isn't a conscious decision on my part- I just pull up, roll to the new heading, and pull back down.

Two moves that I use on a regular basis in a "defensive" way to try to force the overshoot are a "rolling reversal" and one that I actually got from reading about historical tactics in the 190.

The "rolling reversal" (at least how I do it)- begins with an abrupt flat turn in one direction as the enemy closes to within 800 yards or so.  I hold it for about a second, then I begin a barrel roll in the opposite direction of the break turn when the bandit closes to within 600 yards or so.  You then end up flying "around" the bandits flight path- and you'll end up on his tail if he doesnt respond at all.  If he attempts to follow you through it, he will *usually* be going to fast, and he will be forced out in front without his speed advantage.  This is a nice move because the bandit *usually* will not be able to get a good tracking shot on you- he may be able to go for a quick snapshot as he blows past.

My other move I use on planes that can't turn very well (i.e. P51's, 109s, 190s- P47s if you get lucky).  As the bandit closes to within 800 yards I make a hard break turn up and to the right.  99% of the time they will be able to track you through this, but thats OK.  Once the bandit gets within 5-600 yards, roll 180 degrees, and pull back so you are headed down and left.  Usually, the Bandit will attempt to follow you through this as well, and he WILL overshoot.  Most of the time though, you will be exposed to a quick snapshot as you pass back in front of the bandit.  So I wouldn't use this on C-Hogs, N1K2, and even the Spitfire if you aren't feeling lucky.

As a note- in the 190A8 and the 190D9, you HAVE to be going at LEAST 300 mph to perform any kind of evasive manuever.  If you aren't going that fast, perform a "zero G" dive to build up airspeed quickly (hold down on the stick until the G meter reads 0- and hold it there).

Hope this helps.  I'm no expert in the 190- you may want to ask Swulfe, Milenko, or Mandoble for help in it if you can get ahold of them in the MA.  I'd be glad to help you, but those guys are probably better than me anyway.

[Lephturn]

Urchin, good stuff!  

Your "rolling reversal" is a defensive barrel roll, not really a reversal at all.  You don't end the maneuver pointed in the other direction.    I have heard that term used before though.  As you pointed out, because the Dora only really rolls and handles well at high speed, and will burn speed pretty quick in hard maneuvers, so you want to start them at a higher speed.

The second move you mention is a variation on the Split-S.  It's what many LW drivers would call the "flick-and-flee", generally the upwards break is used to put you in position to execute a very fast snap-roll to get you down and away incredibly quickly.  In essence, it is a split-S that tries to sucker your opponent to following you down with greater speed, where his higher speed will translate into a wider turning radius which can force an overshoot.  The very dangerous part of this move is the timing of your upward break.  During that time you are in perfect position for a nice snapshot, so be sure you don't wait to long to flick over into the the dive.  If you misjudge it, you get tagged.

[Urchin]

LOL Leph- I'm just all kinds of confused.  I guess I just fly, then throw around random terms that I've heard to make sense of it  

I thought it was a "rolling reversal" because I rolled, and I got behind him when he was behind me, hence the reversal  

Now that I know it is a barrel roll I'll call it that  .

As far as the "split-S" thing.  I was thinking about that, and yes, it is sort of a 45 degree split S.  Plus, when they try to follow you back down and to the left, they end up starting a 45 degree scissors hehehe.

That move works great on P51's by the way.

[Lephturn]

It works great on P-47's as well.  I know, it's one I see used against me fairly often.  As long as the Jug attacking has more speed/E than you do, it will work well.  Don't try it if the Jug is close to your energy level, because in that case he may simply follow you through the maneuver.

For those that are flying the attacking plane, the counter move is to simply not try to follow the maneuver.  I'll normally start a gentle zoom when I see you go into this, then roll back down towards your resulting vector to the left.  It ends up being a high yoyo that I do to maintain my E and still be positioned in my target's rear quarter.  However, my counter will allow you to generate some separation, and you can use that to either start a scissors or to attempt an escape.

Any kind of Split-S is often a good move when there are multiple aircraft from both sides in the area.  A smart E fighter who counters this move will often be reluctant follow you down if there are other bandits in the area.  Use that to your advantage... but be careful you don't end up diving away underneath incoming higher hostiles.    Plan your escape vector before the fight, and be sure to roll out of your escape move heading for home, and hopefully clear air space.  Once you have broken away from the fight, you can grab more E and come back for another shot at it.  

[milnko]

Just a couple quick notes here about rolls;

1. Keep in mind during a Split S or Immelmann that where the top of your head is pointed during the pull will be the direction your plane will end up being headed.

2. I use a "lag roll" (in correct term?)
to gain a firing position on a enemy plane with better turn rate than my A/C.

If a bandit break turns to the left for instance, I'll pull up about 10 degrees, roll right (away from bandit), hold it for a second, then roll left back into the bandit.

If I'm unable to gain the shot, it leaves me in a position to extend away, as I usually have more energy than the bandit performing the HIGH G, energy burning, break turn.

Thank god it's a "guns only" enviroment out there  

[humble]

milenko,

Can you continue your "roll away" and use forward stick pressure to "push thru" to the other guys turn? Thats the way I've read Robert Johnson describe his "favorite move".

Seems like it would work but I haven't really tried it much.

[milnko]

Originally posted by humble:
milenko,

Can you continue your "roll away" and use forward stick pressure to "push thru" to the other guys turn? Thats the way I've read Robert Johnson describe his "favorite move".

Seems like it would work but I haven't really tried it much.

Humble,

I'm sure that would work and I'll give it a try myself, however it seems to me that the game is geared more to redouts (from pushing nose down) than to blackouts (pulling nose up) so maintaining vis may be tricky.

[Guinn]

190 is really cool for them fast 'flip' rolls, of 180-deg to switch directions, i love it.

Never successfully done the scissors with it though, but then again, i cant even do the scissors in a n1k!