High Yo-yo?

[Urchin]

OK- I'll preface this question with an example of my ignorance from last night.  I was flying around harrasing Bishops in my 190D9.  I started to get a little low on gas, so I turned for home.  An LA7 came roaring up (well, not really)- and he chased me for a looooooooonnnnggggg time. I found a friendly PT boat that was driving around, so I flew over him.  When I did this, the LA7 broke off, climbed, and then resumed the chase.  He had gone from about 1k back to about 3k back.  We had both climbed, but he had climbed more than me.  I decided that I had had about enough of this LA7 chasing me around, so I turned into him.  We did some of that fancy pilot $%^$^ (read: I don't remember most of the fight)- and I ended up on his 6, about 400 yards back and roughly the same speed (slow, about 250 mph or so).  He tried some stunts that weren't to effective at getting me off his 6 (they did ruin my aim though), then broke right.  I tried to pull lead on him to get a shot, but I couldn't quite bring the nose around.  We went around in a diving circle (started the circle at maybe 4k, ended it on the deck), and after about 7-8 circles he was coming around on my 6.  This entire long turn was made at very low speed (low enough that I was on my first notch of flaps, so maybe 180).  

Now, I THINK I know what a hi yo-yo is, even though I never think about it when I'm doing it.  When you do a high yo-yo, you roll wings-level, then pull up, roll in the direction the bandit is, then pull through behind him, right?  My question is that since the 190d9 obviously cannot out turn the LA7 in a slow flat turn, would it have been possible for me to make a series of hi yo-yos to stay on his tail, instead of him eventually working around to mine like when I stayed in the flat turn?  Would this work at low speed?  Or only at high speed?

Finally, what would you have done in that situation?  By the way, the fight ended because I smacked into the water trying to pull OUT of the slow circle  .

[aknimitz]

Hiyas Urchin,

Good question, here is my $.02.  First of all, never get into a turning fight with an La7 in a D9 if you can avoid it.  La7 is a mean turnin' machine.  But, to address your question.  Yes, the move you described is a hi yo-yo.  It is basically an out of plane move that allows you to come back into the fight and attempt to gain angles on the bandit.

Basically, you roll level wings level and gently climb and then roll back down into your attack as you described.  That is one way a D9 might be able to take a deflection shot on a La7.  But, if the La7 is turning tight, good luck.  You probably will not be able to use the hi yo-yo to gain angles.

If I am a D9 and I close on the 6 of an la7 ... and the turn fighter enters a hard flat turn that I cannot sustain, I am going to take myself out of that fight by extending and climbing at optimal speed.  The bandit will have bled a lot of energy by using a flat turn, and I will have conserved a lot of energy by climbing.  I would then recommence the attack on my terms.  Barring interference from another plane, it is just a matter of time and patience.

Hope this helps, happy to train with you if even need to in the TA.

Nim/AKLarry

[Andy Bush]

Urchin

Can you use a High Yo-Yo "to make angles"?

Yes and no!

To clarify this, let's establish our parameters. Let's assume two fighters are in a tail chasing turn contest. Both are similar in performance, and both are flying at max performance.

In this situation, it is not possible to use a yo-yo (High or Low) to better your overall position. Emphasis on "overall position". Yes, it is possible for the trailing fighter to level the wings and pull up into a yo-yo. It could then roll inverted and dive back down into the target's turn circle. The best it could get is a snapshot at end game...it will not be able to turn inside the target, since, by definition, the target is already max performing at a rate equal to the attacker's.

Now...if the target is not max performing, then the attacker could conceivably improve his starting position.

The idea of using a yo-yo to gain angles when in a Lufbery is a common misconception. The sticky point here is the emphasis on max performance. Max performance is just that....max! When turning at max G, the attacker has nothing left to use to gain a turn advantage. It's a definitional thing!

Hope this isn't too murky...if so, I'll try again!

Andy

[Urchin]

Hehe, thanks Andy.  I didn't think I could use a high yo-yo in that situation, all you did was affirm that.  You used some really smart language though  .  I was thinking a hi yo-yo was used more in the situation where the attacker has an energy advantage anyways, and doesnt want to waste it by trying to turn with a better turning plane that he is bouncing.

Nim- the LA7 is NOT all that hot a turner- I can outturn one in the same situation with a 109G10.  It is more along the lines of the Dora is just a really stinky turner  .

[Andy Bush]

Urchin

You have it right!

In the traditional sense, a High Yo-Yo is intended to solve high closure, high angle off situations.

A secondary purpose is the situation you mention...an energy fighter using the vertical against a turning angles fighter.

Andy

[aknimitz]

Urchin, you are REALLY mistaken.  The la7 will easily outturn G10 - I fly it quite a bit, I assure you  

Find me sometime, happy to demonstrate  

Nim

[Ghosth]

Hate to disagree with you urchin, but I'll turn my La7 against your 109 anytime.  

Once you get low against an LA7 your playing ball in his court. If you can drag the fight up to 15- 20k then YOU have the edge.

The other main thing to remember is that wep on a La7 quits at 8k. So if your going to run, do it BEFORE you get below 10k.

[Lephturn]

I would like to add that a low yoyo would be of more use in the situation you described.  If you were in a flat circle turning with the bandit, it is likely that your speed would drop below your best sustained turn speed.  In this case, a low yoyo could be used to increase your speed so you can get closer to your max performance.

If I have more speed than the bogey and am faster than my best turning speed, I can high yoyo to preserve my E and maintain position.  If I do not have enough speed and I'm below my best turning speed, I can use a low yoyo to increase my speed and still maintain position.  Of course with a low yoyo, if the enemy maintains a level turn and you must end each low yoyo at the same altitude, you won't gain much if at all.  However, you can often use a low yoyo to generate the extra speed you need to pull lead pursuit long enough for a kill shot.  If you miss, you'll be in trouble because you will have burned too much energy, and will likely be below your max performance turning speed.

What often happens is that BOTH of you will start with the low yoyos, eventually turning into just a big decending spiral.  The trick is to have an idea what your best turning speed is for your plane, and what your opponents is.  This way, you can use high or low yoyos to stay at your best turning speed as much as possible.  You can also use a large disparity in best turn performance speeds to your advantage by either taking the fight level or upwards to bleed speed, or taking it downwards to gain or maintain speed.

To answer your question Urchin, a low yoyo would have been my choice.  Now that is provided I had the altitude to do so.  You lived as long as you did in that circle because the fight went down to the deck... keeping your speed higher.  A low yoyo likely would not have saved you, but early in the fight if you were close to a shot but without enough E to pull lead, a low yoyo might have allowed you to generate lead for a shot.

[Andy Bush]

Argghh!!

This is what I'm talking about! When recommending maneuvers, we need to be very careful about setting up the entry conditions.

It sounds to me like Urchin is describing a Lufbery situation...both aircraft are turning in-plane with each other, and both are turning at max performance. This implies that both pilots are pulling on the pole as hard as they can...there is no additional G available to turn any harder.

Now, the attacker CAN rotate his lift vector out of the plane of the turn...but when he does this, the bandit will begin to make angles on him since the attacker's relative rate of turn will decrease.

If the attacker increases his bank to attempt a Low Yo-Yo, he will have to relax back pressure once his bank angle has been changed in order to gain airspeed. He will in fact gain airspeed...but while this is happening, the bandit still turns. The attacker may gain speed back, but at the expense of increased angle off and a potential flight path overshoot as he comes back up the other side of the yo-yo.

The simple fact is that in a Lufbery situation, there is no remedy other than rolling out and extending away from the turn...in other words, separating from the fight. By definition, the bandit hard turn takes away any additional turning room for the attacker.

Now...this is very academic!! What really happens in a given engagement is a function of how each pilot is flying his fighter. If the defender is not max performing his aircraft, then the attacker may be able to yo-yo to an advantage. Otherwise, certain physical laws step in that prohibit any increase in relative overall performance.

Andy

[Syzygyone]

Seems that in the scenario described, Urchins only smart out was to extend, climb, and dictate the terms that way, rather than be drawn to LA's strength.

But, a question comes to mind re: Hi Yo Yo vs. Wing Over

In the scenarior described, I got a bit confused with the terminology.  May be its is just semantics but to me a High Yo Yo is a reversal move, pull up, roll to nme, dive down after about 180 degrees.  Is this a correct understanding.  If it is, the a low yo yo is dive down, roll to nme, pull up after about 180 degrees.  

So, then, what is difference btwn Hi Yo Yo and Wign Over?  

 

[Lephturn]

Andy,

I was careful to state that a low yoyo would only be useful if you were below your best turn speed.  In that case, the low yoyo will increase your speed and allow you to turn at a speed closer to your best sustained turn speed hence improving YOUR performance.  It won't affect the other fellow, but it is a tool to help you keep your plane at max performance.  This is esepcially useful when flying heavier wing loaded birds where that best sustained turn speed tends to be higher then the folks you are fighting.  Indeed, I find in practice that most folks will tend to pull too hard and drop below their best turning speed and lose performance.  I'm pointing out that often you are  below your best sustained turn speed in a situation like this, and if that is the case, a low yoyo may be your best choice.  It's certainly a better option than a high yoyo or simply just continueing in a flat turn where you are destined to lose.  The situation given was an La7 and a D9... if the La7 does everything right, the D9 is meat anyway in that situation at low altitude.

This is of course given that you can't escape the lufberry once you are in it given this particular situation.  I dare say, there isn't a fighter in this game that can expect to roll out of a lufberry with an La7 at low altitude and live.  It's just too fast and accellerates too well... you'll die.  If you are going to roll out of it... better plan on trying a sucker move like a scissors.. even though your odds are not too good at this point.  If you have the altitude you can try any of the FW reversals that rely on fast rolls to generate separation, specifically the "flick-and-flee".  The real solution is not to get in that situation in the first place.  Even if your plane is superior in sustained turn capability, if there are other enemies in the area you are a very predictable target while engaged in a flat turning tail chase.  Get out if you can... but it's best not to get in that kind of fight at all.  

Syzygy,

A high yoyo is a combination of a climb, a roll, and a dive, all blended together.  How steeply you climb and dive in between will depend on a number of factors, including speed, closure on the bandit, angle off, etc.  Your definition of a high yoyo sounds basically correct but it doesn't have to be a steep clinb, and it doesn't have to end with you going 180 degrees exactly.  How much you climb before you roll and pull back down will make the high yoyo look a lot different.  You can do a very steep one if you have a lot of excess energy, or a very shallow one if you only have a little excess energy.

A wingover... well I've heard varying definitions for this one.  Everthing from what I would call a "hammerhead" stall turn where you zoom straight up to near 0 airspeed, then stall to one side and slide back down into a dive, to simply rolling over and diving.  Generally though I would say a "wingover" is more of a stall-speed reversal that would be used more in aerobatics than in A2A combat.  Maybe Andy can enlighten us further on this one.

[Urchin]

Yes Leph- I think since I was turning at around 180 mph I was WELL below the best cornering speed for the Dora.  Speaking of which, what IS the best cornering speed?  Somewhere around 300 mph?

I think what you can a low yo-yo I would describe as cutting inside the enemies turn by diving- is that right?  I was trying to do that, but then, so was he, which is why we were in a descending circle.  When we hit the deck I was pretty sure I was screwed- but my only other option would have been to roll out of the circle- which would have put him probably 1k back and on my 6 once he saw me roll out.  I've had some success running from La7's in the Dora, but I don't think I'd have made it starting from 200 mph on the deck.  So I opted to continue the circle and pray for him to do something stupid (hey, sometimes that even works   ), but he didn't.  

I think the best suggestion so far was not to even TRY to pull lead on him, as soon as he attempted to initiate the turning "Lufberry" I should have extended.  At least then he would have been 1k back on my 6 at about 3k or so, instead of on the deck.

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

[Andy Bush]

Leph

That's a good post!

The Low Yo-Yo is in a class of maneuvers known as "acceleration" maneuvers. It is commonly described as a way of blending cut off and an airspeed increase to increase closure on a bandit (usually a turning bandit...but not one turning at a high rate).

Once we get into a stagnated situation where we are below a sustained turn speed (like a Lufbery), then the Low Yo-Yo loses much of its value. If the attacker keeps the G on during the maneuver, then he is likely to not accelerate much since he will be well into the "behind the power curve" area (for the academics, he is well into the negative Ps area of the flight envelope). If the attacker recognizes this and unloads the G to accelerate, then he quits turning and the target will begin making angles on him (by moving along his wingline towards his six). The attacker does not want to give up angles, so this maneuver becomes counter-productive when the objective is to out turn the target. If the objective is to separate or attempt a snap shot, then that's something else. The point is that if the attacker intends on staying in the turning fight (under these conditions), then a low yo-yo is very difficult to employ, and at best often only returns the attacker to his original stagnated position.

Your explanation of the variables that impact how a High Yo-Yo is flown is excellent!

Wingover...I don't recall ever hearing of such a thing in real life BFM.

Aerobatics...yes...sounds like something between a Hammerhead and a Lazy Eight.

Andy

[Lephturn]

Thanks Andy.

I guess the point is that in the case given I know the attacker is going to lose if he stays in the Lufbery, so I'm not looking to stay in it.  The low yoyo may give him the snapshot you describe... and that's what I would go for in that situation.  Anything to break the stagnant Lufbery where the other guy is slowly gaining on you.  The low yoyo will generally play to the strengths of a more highly wingloaded plane such as the D9 or the P47.  A short acceleration dive combined with a roll to cut off the angle and a hard pull to get guns on works well in the high power fighters with higher wing loadings.  These fighters tend to accellerate fairly well, and also tend to have very good instantaneous turn rates at higher speeds.  The low yoyo then plays to those strengths, and the snapshot you can get using a low yoyo can save you from the immenent doom of a flat turn Lufbery circle versus a fighter with a better and slower sustained turning ability.

Urchin,

Yep, I'd guess the best sustained turning speed for the Dora would be pretty high.  I'd guess somewhere under 300 for sustained, but up around there is a good place to start since the big Wulf will burn speed very quickly.

Your description of the low yoyo sounds fairly accurate, but you are missing the roll component.  The reason this works, is that you incorporate some vertical into the move and turn in the horizontal by simply rolling the plane while the other guy flat turns.  It can net you snapshot opportunities if used properly, but as Andy mentions, it doesn't really gain you anything in a static continued turn fight.

One good way to get out may be to start with a low yoyo, then at the top of it hit a fast roll to inverted and pull through the other way.  This could generate a bit more separation although it will likely give the other fellow a snapshot opportunity.  In a fast plane like the Dora, you may get enough separation to make your escape.  Try not to test that versus the La7 though... it's likely one of the most dangerous planes to a Dora driver at low altitude.

About pulling lead pursuit... if you are in a faster plane and trying to be a good Energy fighter, you only want to pull lead to increase closure or to put bullets on target.  You should normally be trying to use lag pursuit to manage closure and maintain greater speed with an E advantage.  (You didn't engage without and E advantage RIGHT?  )  Once you are in a close knife fight and you are close enough for a shot, you basically don't want to pull lead pursuit until the very end.  One of the tricks of successful E fighting is learning when to relax a bit and stay in lag pursuit... build up your E advantage or at least maintain it.  In a close tail-chase fight, only when you are fairly certain of a kill should you pull lead.  Every time you pull lead on him, you are turning harder... burning more E.  This is why I set the 8 .50's of my Jug to a convergence of 250 for all guns.  When I'm E fighting and my advantage is slipping away, I'll burn my E for lead for just a second or two, and I need to make that count.  Often after the shot I'll mush the plane into a bit of a stall, because I've burnt the last of my speed in a short turn to get a shot.  In a plane like the Jug or the Dora you need to learn when you've burnt your E for that shot, and if you've missed, you need to bug out fast.  It takes careful management of E, and knowing when to burn it for the shot, but more than anything it takes knowing when you've lost the advantage so you can get out before you get shot.  This is why I LOVE flying planes like the Jug and playing the E game.  It's a great challenge, and a great reward when you pull it off.  

[ 08-20-2001: Message edited by: Lephturn ]

[Seeker]

Urchin,
       you'll find all the "standard" BFM's here:
 http://spandau.250x.com/acm/acmfilm.htm

Not that it's ever helped me any.....