Snap shots....

[skernsk]

I have been playing this game for a while now and the biggest problem I have is the dreaded snap shot.

What is the secret to the damn shot?  I am constanly missing either high or low, and usually I wait too long.  If anybody has some advice I would really appreciate it.

[Rocket]

S!

   I think IMO alot of it depends on several variables.  How close are you when you have a chance for a snapshot.. the closer you are the less lead ya need for it.  How many G are you pulling at the time?  Hi G shots are low % shots, you will miss behind the plane consistantly.  As for missing just off the wings that is missing your guess on the cons path while it is under your nose.  Make sure your ball is centered and you don't have excessive rudder input, a yawing plane will miss.  Try to unload Gs before the shot and practice will help following the con with him under your nose.  Snapshots are just that, a passing chance for a shot.  They are usually not hi % shots but just a quick chance for some hits.  Sometimes just by luck you can change the outcome of a close fight by hitting something with the snapshot.  It is something good to have in your arsenal for the just in case but I have seen many a fight change direction becuase someone tried to force a chance for a snapshot instead of being patient.

I hope that was too confusing  

S!
Rocket

[GunnerCAF]

Lately I have been paying a lot of attention to where my sights are pointing.  If they are in front of your target, you give up angles.  It they are behind, you are gaining angles.  To take a snap shot, in guns range, you are giving up angles.

If I take a high angle snap shot, I have a bunch of speed and plan to extend and get out of the fight.  If I plan to turn, I won't take the shot, and pull the nose behind the target, maybe go into a high yo yo if I it looks like I will overshoot.  In my opinion, it is better to save your ammo and go for position.

If you plan to go for the snap shot, I find this is useful.  In the article
 http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/gunsights/

there good pictures and this chart
 http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/air_combat/gunsights/fig24.shtml

If your at a 45 degree angle off, at 350 yds, you need to shoot 4 wingspans in front of your target.  At 90, not on the chart, you need to be maybe 8 or more.  This is not an easy shot.  I would get a close as possible, shoot and extend away.

I think the off line drones are great practice.  You can set up different angles and get a good feel for where you need to shoot to make a hit.

Good luck!

Gunner <CAF>

[SKurj]

don't pull gee if u can when making the shot, i typically will try to fire in my opponents path, tho my hit ratio with these attacks is not good at all.

I also find it pretty ineffective with anything but, the more lethal gun systems.

SKurj

[-ammo-]

By chance do you shoot skeet, trap, or bird hunt? The same princioples apply. Being able to judge speed, direction, amount of deflection, and desired point of bullet stream and target interception are all paramount. You gotta be able to compute all this in your head very quickly. For those that are good at it, its really instinct. You just know that the con is gonna pop up in front and you fire at tyhe right time. Ideally you want to be able to see the con throughout the fight, never losing sight. But I have hit enemy in the middle of blackouts, where the came from under my line of sight.

I watched a film some months ago where drex and lephturn were going at it. drex has an uncanny nack for snapshot shooting. I can remeber zigrat surprising me in a one on one before. There are several that are really good.

the best excercise I can think of that will help is for you to practice HIGH deflection shooting on the drones in ofline. No icons and you make diving perpendicular passes at them. Just try Headon's with them if you want to try something very difficult. Keep it up for a while, 20 mintues a time, and your gunnery will improve.

[Lephturn]

Of course, it helps that we were flying the Jug, and that plane has a good gun set and a ton of ammo.  8 x .50's is the best gunset for snapshots in terms of ease of aim.  Most other guns in the game drop more and are harder to connect with snapshots.  The best snapshot guns have to be the Hispano cannons though.  Although their rate of fire is lower, and their trajectory not quite as good as the .50's, when you do hit they do much more damage with only a few rounds.  That's why the C-Hog is such a snapshot machine, as the Typhoon is and the Hurricane will be.  But, no matter what gun set you are carrying a ton of ammo is important.  Remember, this is still a low percentage shot, so make sure you have the ammo to spare.

As other stated above, the formula for a snapshot is to pull your nose ahead of the bandit's flight path, sight on where he will be, unload to 0-1 G, fire a short burst that intersects the target's flight path.

Now, the problem with the above is that you have to do two things that will hurt you if you are in a knife fight.  1.  You must pull your nose ahead of the bandit.  This means  you must turn harder and pull more G's most of the time to get in that position.  When you do that, you are burning more energy than the target, and doing that will often translate into a loss of the advantage.  2.  You must unload to take the shot.  If you are not pulling as many G's as the other fellow, he is gaining angles on you while line up the shot.

The end result is that taking snapshots, depending on the situation, often costs you energy and angles.  Now you can burn E to make up for that loss and stay in the fight if you have an E advantage, but you are burning up your advantage to do so.  So if depending on how much of an E advantage you have, relative plane performance, and setup factors, you may be able to take X number of snapshots before you lose too much of your E advantage.  The trick is estimating those E states correctly and knowing when to take the snapshots, and when to simply drop into lag pursuit and maintain your E advantage and wait for a shot later in the fight.

[SKurj]

My favorite snapshot weapon is the 30mm in the 109.  Against a good planform 1 hit can be all it takes against all but the toughest aircraft +)

SKurj

[Andy Bush]

There have been some good points made here...but let's agree on one thing to begin with. A snapshot is a low Pk type of gun attack, usually the result of a chance encounter, not a planned attack...or it is a winner take all attack where the real focus is on the post-attack extension.

There are two ways to look at this. Real world ballistics and sim world programming.

But first, a word or two on terminology. A snapshot is any gun attack where the gun aiming indices is not held on the target (or aiming point). In a tracking gunshot, the idea is to keep the projectile path on the target during the time of the burst. In a snapshot, conventional tracking is put aside, and the objective is to get the target to fly through the projectile path at some point coincident with the projectiles being there.

In 25 words or less, this is not easy to do or a very effective means of attack when considering Pk.

There are two primary variables. One is to be able to aim the gun line into the target's future flight path and be able to identify the open fire point. This obviously means that the attacker has to be able to see the target during the aiming process. The second variable is the chance of a perfectly aimed airplane being able to put enough rounds into the target flight path to be able to damage the target.

The first variable has to consider the magnitude of the lead angle. For a given set of attack parameters, this angle tends to be fairly constant throughout the effective range of the gun...and it is quite large...so large that when the attacker and target are in the same plane of motion (POM), the lead angle will put the target below the nose of the attacker. The solution to this is to have the attacker's POM about 90 degrees removed from the target's. This allows the attacker a much improved and wider field of view.

The second variable deals with the probability of hitting and damaging the target assuming the target flys into the bullet stream. There are two things in play here...projectile density and projectile killing power.

In order to maximize density, the attacker wants to have two things...high rate of fire (more rounds per second) and a small cone of dispersion (maximum rounds per square foot).

To get high rate of fire, choose the appropriate fighter. Getting max density is a little harder. You want to shoot at one G to eliminate projectile spray, and you want the target to intersect your gun line at convergence range...otherwise your pattern gets diluted.

Lastly, if you hit the target, you want to do maximum damage with minimum rounds since your chances of hitting the target with more than a few rounds are minimal in a snapshot.

In my gun articles at SimHQ, I discuss snapshot techniques in a typical sim...for the details, go there.

One last point...a high deflection shot is not a snapshot...it is only a tracking gun attack made at what is considerd a high angle off. Your idea of what is "high" may differ from what others think!

Andy

[Urchin]

Hum.  I don't know about the whole "density" thing.  I tend to get better snapshots (by better I mean I can SEE the damage) in cannon armed birds.  Even with only 1 or 2 hits on my end, it seems that cannon rounds can blow something important off (like a wing  ).  

To be quite honest though, I don't think you can call anything in a 1v1 fight a true "snapshot"- because you are ALWAYS tracking your opponent.  I'd call that more of a deflection shot.  A snapshot for me is something that happens in big multiplane dogfights, where someone happens to fly right in front of you, and you happen to see him in time and fire.  Since I don't really "do" the big furballs, I rarely take what I'd consider a snapshot.  

As far as deflectoin shooting goes- I just take a look at the enemy plane, take a look at what he is trying to do, then point my nose at where he is going to be and fire.  For instance, it is so much easier to set yourself up on a target that is chasing someone.  All you basically have to do is follow the guy that your target is following, and you'll be in position to take a deflection shot on your target somewhere in all of that.  I very, very rarely open fire at any range greater than 300 or so, no matter what the targets aspect is.  So the key for me is to either 1. get within 200 yards of my target, or 2. get within 200 yards of where my target is going to be.  If you can get closer than that, you've got a much better chance of killing your target, no matter what the angle is on your shot.  I've killed quite a few planes with what would be considered 90 degree deflection shots, except the range was so close on them (under 100 yards) that I didnt have to do much except fire right before he crossed my nose.  That sort of shot is almost always fatal (to the target anyway) if you are firing cannons.

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by Andy Bush:

One last point...a high deflection shot is not a snapshot...it is only a tracking gun attack made at what is considerd a high angle off. Your idea of what is "high" may differ from what others think!

Andy

Good points.  on the quote i just said. What I mean by "high" is large amount of angle. target path and your your nbullet stream are form alot a large angle at the point they meet. for example in a rear trackling shot where I am at dead 6 to my target, there  is no deflection, no anmgle. where if the target is crosses my bullet stream from the far left to my right, he might be 90 degrees off my center axis. I call that "High". but as I have witnessed in the past on this BBS by you sir, maybe I havent explained it that well. But I am trying
<S>!

[GunnerCAF]

Thanks Andy.  Your articles on SimHQ are great!

 

To be quite honest though, I don't think you can call anything in a 1v1 fight a true "snapshot"- because you are ALWAYS tracking your opponent. I'd call that more of a deflection shot. A snapshot for me is something that happens in big multiplane dogfights, where someone happens to fly right in front of you, and you happen to see him in time and fire.  

Urchin, a tracking shot has nothing to do with you are watching.  It is being able to keep a firing solution as you follow your target.  Snapshots and tracking shots can take place in both 1v1 to large furballs.

Gunner <CAF>

[Andy Bush]

Urchin

Here's a quick way to visualize the "density thing"!

Let's say the target is crossing your nose at 90 degrees angle off. You fire early enough to get your bullet stream into the target's flight path.

Now, let's say the target is doing 300KTAS...this is about 500 feet per second. And let's say the target is 30 feet long.

Imagine the projectile path as a cone that is slowly expanding as range increases....at typical convergence ranges, this "cone" may be 10-15 feet wide.

Now, we look at rate of fire and the number of guns in action...we'll go for broke and choose 6 .50 caliber machine guns that fire at about 750 rounds per minute. We'll be generous and say that equals about 80 rounds per second total.

Now we go back to the target. At 500 fps, it crosses the gun line in about .6 seconds...this means less than 8 rounds have a chance of hitting the target under the best of conditions. Not very much unless something serious is hit!

This is the reality of a snapshot...there simply are not very many rounds in the airspace that the target fly through, regardless of how many rounds are fired.

-ammo-

You got it right! It is very possible to track a target with a crossing angle of 90 degrees...in fact, this is often the case when an energy fighter has an angles fighter break across his flight path. The energy fighter pulls lead to track the hard turning (and energy losing) target...to do this does not require much in the way of turn rate for the energy fighter if begun soon enough. After shooting, the energy fighter can BnZ the target for another pass.

Andy

[Urchin]

Now we go back to the target. At 500 fps, it crosses the gun line in about .6 seconds...this means less than 8 rounds have a chance of hitting the target under the best of conditions. Not very much unless something serious is hit!

 

Ahh, OK.  So that is why when I shoot with my 190 or 109, I see only 2 or 3 "flashes", but they are all "big" rounds hitting.  So something falls off (like a wing  ).  But a P51 that saw 2 or 3 "flashes" on his end wouldnt nescesarily think he had done any damage?  Because I ALWAYS assume I've damaged someone when I see 2 or 3 hits on them, and usually I'm right and it is a kill.  Another question I've got-  When you see a "flash" on the enemy airplane, how many rounds did you hit with? Just one?  Or are only the tracer rounds modelled to give "flashes" when they hit but it knows that rounds in between would have hit?

 

Urchin, a tracking shot has nothing to do with you are watching. It is being able to keep a firing solution as you follow your target. Snapshots and tracking shots can take place in both 1v1 to large furballs.

 

But Gunner- isn't that what you are doing when you are watching someone?  At least if someone is within 180 degrees of my nose (say 90 to either side)- I'm doing my damndest to put my nose where I think he is going to be. Isn't that what a "firing solution" is?

I'm sorry I sound so stupid, I honestly get kind of confused with all the technical terms going around  .  I guess I just "do stuff" without ever really thinking about what it is called   .  I need to learn some of this technical jargon, it'll make me sound better  .

[GunnerCAF]

Urchin,

It is much better to be able to do it, than to just talk smart about it   <S>

 

But Gunner- isn't that what you are doing when you are watching someone? At least if someone is within 180 degrees of my nose (say 90 to either side)- I'm doing my damndest to put my nose where I think he is going to be. Isn't that what a "firing solution" is?

 

A firing solution is when your guns are in position to hit the target (bullets will hit the target based on all the angles and speeds)  Most times, you will have a tracking shot if you are following behind your target in guns range or "saddled up."  You can keep your bullet stream on the target as you fly behind him.

If you are not in position behind your target it is possible to take snap shots as he passes in front of you.  As discussed above, in a snap shot, the target will fly through (in and out) of your bullet stream.

Gunner <CAF>

[humble]

Gunner,

If your sight is "behind" enemy you are in lag pursuit. If your sight is pointed ahead of the enemy you are in lead pursuit. Gaining, or losing, angles is in reference to your current situation....if you pull harder for a shot, your gaining angles and losing E. If you ease of to maintain speed, your losing angles and gaining energy. It's possible to do both or lose both as well based on relative performance.

Anyway, as others described (better than I can) a snap shot is any shot outside the tracking envelope. I agree with the comment the best move is not to change your fight...often you give up angles and E for a meaningless shot.

But if your in a "double negative" fight it may be your only chance to win. TORQUE was best I've ever seen here at snap shots, from little I gleaned from a few conversations in addition to great control of views and a natural "eye" for snapshots he used the following:

1) Cannon plane (c-hog, 205 etc)
2) Used rudders to rake flight path of con
3) always kept target in the up views
4) was off the gas and unloaded G's to shoot
5) always extended after a snap shot

best as I can recall his comments....course I've never been able to come close to duplicating those types of results