Author Topic: T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration  (Read 1419 times)

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« on: December 22, 2004, 04:11:15 PM »
Well, I've been playing around with this tank for a few days.  

I do like it.  I don't think the Panzer IV completely outmatches it like I did on the first day of using it.  

However, I will say the major reason that I think nobody uses it is because of the Tiger.  The T-34 literally can't hurt the Tiger.  Doesn't matter how close it is, where it shoots from (unless you somehow catch one climbing up a 45 degree slope and you can shoot down into the top of it, unlikely at best in my opinion), or how many times it shoots.  

The very best it can hope for is to track it, which is again a pretty long shot considering the Tiger has absolutely no problem popping the T-34 at any feasible range.  

I did talk to Pyro about it, and he confirmed that with the ammunition that is modelled it is just about impossible for a T-34 to hurt a Tiger.  

One thing that would remedy this is if the T-34 was modelled with the BR-350P APCT round.  

The penetration data I found for the round (to the best of my knowledge the Soviets defined penetration as 75% of the fragments of the round going through the armor, the Germans was 50%) was as follows

Angle ---  100M ----  500M ---  1000M --- 2000M ---  
0        ------ 133mm ---  95mm ---   62mm  ----   28mm
30      ------  96mm  ---  68mm ---   45mm ----    21mm
60      ------  33mm  ---  25mm ---   17mm ----    11mm

The regular round that is modelled (BR-350A) has the following

Angle --- 100M ---- 500M --- 1000M --- 2000M ---
0        -------  81mm ----  73mm ---  63mm ---   28mm
30      ------ 76mm ----  68mm ---  60mm ---   45mm
60      ------  40mm ----  37mm ---  34mm ---   31mm

The armor our Tiger has (I think) is

Location ---  Front  -------- Side ------- Rear
Turret  ----  102mm @8d --  82mm ------  82mm
Upper Hull-  102mm @10d - 82mm ------  82mm
Lower Hull-  102mm @24d - 62mm ------  82mm

Top armor is 25mm on turret and hull.  I'm pretty sure the "lower hull side" means behind the treads, but I'm not positive on that.    

The armor is unsloped, except for the front.

However, our T-34 as modelled has no hope of ever doing any damage to the Tiger, which I think is kind of screwed up.

The BR-350P round was, as I understand, kind of an "emergency" round in that only 4 or so were in each tank.  It was introduced in the summer of 1943.  

Since the T-34 has been introduced, the Tiger is 3802/69 against it.  I'm relatively positive that the 69 kills were as a result of a T34 dropping more rounds into the treads of an already disabled Tiger than anyone else did for the kill.

I really think the T-34 needs a limited number of these rounds to be a viable tank in the MA.  

Right now, you can use it on defense alright, as long as you don't go head to head against the Panzers coming in.  Using it on offense is relatively suicidal, since all it takes is one Tiger to render any number of T-34s essentially useless (or dead).  

I hope that HTC will consider adding this round to the T-34.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2004, 04:21:18 PM by Urchin »

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2004, 04:23:14 PM »
Search 'shatter gap', Soviet 76mm rounds even though theoretically they 'could penetrate' some tended to fail and shatter between a given range (close) rather penetrate.

The western allies had the same issue. Not that this could be possibly modelled in AH but who knows...

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2004, 04:26:44 PM »
Well, even with the 350P the T-34 would only be able to get through the front armor at ~100 yards or so.. and it would be dead long before it got there.  

But, with that round you could at least get to the side or rear of the Tiger at close range and have a couple rounds that *might* hurt it.  

That'd be enough for me.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2004, 04:40:18 PM »
Hi Urchin,

Are you aware of the "Tigerfibel" tank crew training manual?

http://www.geocities.com/tigerfibel/tfindex.html

In the appendix, it has penetration diagrams against different Allied tanks that might be interesting for you :-)

(Not that I have a clue when it comes to tanks.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2004, 04:55:36 PM »
That is pretty cool looking.  

I have absolutely no idea how to read it though lol.

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2004, 05:06:16 PM »
OK, if I am reading that right, according to that (if the little tank in the middle is the Tiger) it looks like the T34 could hurt the Tiger from 1500 yards in a side shot or rear shot, and 500 yards in a front shot.  

Looks like the Tiger could hurt the T34 from 800 yards in a front shot, and 2000+ in a side or rear shot.  

Kind of interesting, I think it is probably wrong, given the other data I've found.  

According to the Goggle translator, the big warning in white says "Entering the clover leaf of the T34 is forbidden" (well, that isn't what it said, but I think that is what it meant)

The big arrow reads "XXXX I can you, but you do not YYYY", probably means "I can hurt you, but you can't hurt me".  

The little one reads "I am shot" lol.

Offline HoHun

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2182
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2004, 06:16:02 PM »
Hi Urchin,

You figured it all out :-)

>The big arrow reads "XXXX I can you, but you do not YYYY", probably means "I can hurt you, but you can't hurt me".  

Quite right! :-)

The headline "Anti-Götz" refers to a stage play by Goethe, famous even among the less literally interested due to a rather graphical curse the knight Götz von Berlichingen hurls at the enemy when he's asked to capitulate. "Tell your captain he can lick my a..", with different degrees of "bleeping" depending on the respective publishers' bigotry level. (I'd love to see the original manuscript ;-)

By the way, the make of the Tigerfibel is a direct rip-off of the RAF's "Tee Emm" training manuals, featuring P.O. Percival Prune. Prune really caught on (and remember, he got awarded the Iron Cross for the destruction of a great number of RAF aircraft, so the Germans were really fond of him!), so the comic style was copied quite accurately (and "enhanced" by adding a generous dose of pin-ups).

The Luftwaffe's "Schießfibel" is another example of a "Tee Emm" rip-off, though it's not as close to the original in style as the Tigerfibel. You have probably seen it already:

http://rafiger.de/Homepage/Pages/Schiessfibel.html

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2004, 06:42:25 PM »
We have a expert tanker in our squad. He discloses that there is a weakness in every tank that will disable it with no more than two shots from another tank, and that is to aim for the "turret ring", where the hull and the turret meets.

 Some of my squaddies confirmed that one shot at a Panzer turret ring from a T-34 will kill it, and one shot from a Panzer to a Tiger turret ring will also kill it.

 Perhaps you could try it and see if it works.

Offline Jester

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2753
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2004, 07:17:42 PM »
Our AH TIGER has two weak spots that I have found...

1. Seam where Turret meets Hull

2. Side in the Wheels just under the fender, but you have to be close to use this shot. One or two can kill him. (With the Panzer IV). But if you just damage him you have to run like HELL!

Our TIGER has a problem with it's rear armor IMHO. "Historically" that was the TIGER's only real weak spot. Many combat stories report that the only way to knock out a Tiger was to get behind it.

I have hit a Tiger square in the rear at close range with 10+ AP shells from the PANZER IV and did nothing to it. Something is not right here. Wish HTC would check this.

Also something wrong with our 5" HVAR rockets and the 40mm guns on the Hurrican IID. The other night I seen several rockets and at least 10 or my 40 mm rounds bounce off his stern with no effect. The rockets are equivelent to a 5" (127mm) shell off a Destroyer. Don't think even the Tiger should be able to stand up to that!
Lt. JESTER
VF-10 "GRIM REAPERS"

WEBSITE:  www.VF10.org

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2004, 08:39:39 PM »
Jester,

I hit a Tiger with a 500lb bomb, saw the hit sprite, and got nothing for it.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

storch

  • Guest
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2004, 09:31:49 PM »
I bet guppy has photos of a flipped over tiger somewhere near bastogne, the result of a 500 gp bomb carpet bombing.

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2004, 09:38:51 PM »
I've disabled the turrets on Tigers with the Hurri-2d, but that it is all.  However, that is all I usually aim to do anyway, even with Panzer IVs.  

Actually, when I go "Tiger hunting" per se, I always use the Hurri-2D, so I've no experience in dropping bombs or shooting rockets at them.  

I've also got very little experience Panzer IV vs Tiger, but I was under the impression that they were quite killable if you got relatively close.  I know a couple times I've distracted a Tiger by getting up right behind it (5 yards away), richocheting a couple rounds off its bellybutton end, then driving to stay in front of its gun while a Panzer came up to kill it.  That is a couple times this week, that is.

But in my experience I've been completely unable to damage one in the T-34.

Offline moot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 16333
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2004, 12:43:17 AM »
V134 was camped yesterday, and while I managed to escape the VH, someone was busy trying to turn his T34 turret around before the vulching Tiger could reload, and by the time I made it around the second VH to flank the Tiger, it was fleeing with its turret smoking.

Didn't film it, so this theory's to be continued..
Hello ant
running very fast
I squish you

Offline Jester

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2753
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2004, 05:04:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Jester,

I hit a Tiger with a 500lb bomb, saw the hit sprite, and got nothing for it.


I have seen TIGER's sitting in a "moonscape" of craters of 1000lb bombs all at least touching the tank and all it did was de-tread him. Didn't even take out the damn pintle MG! Tell me what is wrong with this picture.

TIGER's armor here in AH has some real issues and needs looked at. It should be hard to kill a TIGER due to it's armor and guns but not to the extent of some of the reports we have all seen while playing the game.
Lt. JESTER
VF-10 "GRIM REAPERS"

WEBSITE:  www.VF10.org

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
T-34 Vs Tiger is kind of an exercise in frustration
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2004, 06:32:55 AM »
Moot, would you mind headin to the DA with me sometime to play around with Tiger vs T-34?  I mostly just want to drop a lot of T-34 shots into a Tiger and see if it ever gets hurt.